But that’s just it. It means different things to to different people. And it means more than one thing. And it means one thing as opposed to the other or vice versa. Many Christians do not put up a tree or exchange gifts, and most atheists do just that. A holiday is a very complex thing. Still “very much” a Christian observance? Sure, but mostly a secular one. Christians observe “Christ Mass” during the weeks-long Yuletide folk festival. Explain the lack of references to Jesus at the mall or on TV holiday specials (Linus’ 1965 monologue nonwithstanding). There are plenty of hard facts that wold allow Jews and others to rationalize enjoying much of the Hoilday season, but instead you embrace a much weaker argument to rationalize being negative about the whole thing.
No, dammit! The Pagan religious aspects are dead and gone (but not for some people!). Christianity glommed on afterwards, but is in the process of being re-marginalized.
Not if you don’t want them to! Why interpret it as something alien just so you can feel uncomfortable about it? You can separate the wheat from the chaff without throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
JC:
That point was a little bit tongue-in-cheek (by ‘we’ I meant liberals). Put it this way, the line between church and state parallels the line between Jesus and Santa.
Yeesh, Zev. One of the reasons the big gammish of a holiday party at my workplace is such a fun time for all is the decided lack of ethnopolitical stridency and rigidity. Yeah, Christmas is one thing; yeah, Channukah is another; yeah Divali another still. And so on. From what I understand, Channukah wouldn’t merit much more observance than Ash Wednesday (when’s the last time you saw a crowd of folks with grey spots on their foreheads outside of, say, Ireland?) if it weren’t for its proximity to the traditional time of the celebration of Jesus’ birth.
Any well-informed Christian even knows that celebrating Xmas on Dec. 25th is a bunch of baloney, as nobody really knows Jesus’ birthdate. So an ancient solstice festival was co-opted by the Christians, and now with all the Nativity stuff we’ve got Yule Logs and O Tannenbaum, holly and ivy, mistletoe and Jolly Saint Nick. And presents. I imagine Jesus, poor fellow, if he were resurrected HG Wells-style in the middle of Rockefeller Plaza would be mighty bewildered by what he saw.
So there are some religious details and a bunch of tradition that are not, as far as I can see, always in happy juxtaposition. I suppose one could relate the gift-giving to the story of the Magi, but it’s really more about the legend of St. Nick, and I think any comparison of a pile of presents under the tree with some frankincense and myrrh is strained at best. People party hearty at Xmas, but there’s scant partying in the New Testament infancy narrative. I mean, Mary and Joseph stuck in the barn for her to go through labor next to the goats; meanwhile Herod is out slaughtering infant boys; and all that G-d can send their way are a bunch of shepherds and foreigners bearing…spices? Doesn’t seem very Christmassy to me! Where’s the eggnog and chestnuts? Where are the bell-ringing carolers? What, no rednosed reindeer?
I assert, with others above, that there’s the Christian holy day, and there’s this other thing we call “the Holidays”, and the former can be almost completely removed from the latter without the latter losing any of its superficial qualities. I would also assert that even some of the deeper and more edifying elements of “the Holidays”, like togetherness, peace and goodwill, survive dissociation with the birth of Jesus pretty much intact. So far as I can see, that’s what it’s mostly about in the growing secularization of Christmas. One aspect of “the Holidays” is supplanting the other in the mids of many. However, I don’t think it makes Christmas meaningless if one is not so concerned about Christ. It’s not entirely clear to me why a non-Christian would insist that such religious emphasis remain to make it celebrating.
Correct, to some degree. Channukah is a minor holiday in Judaism that became more popular with assimilated Jews because of it’s proximity to Christmas.
And, BTW, I see quite a few people every Ash Wednesday with ashes on their heads. And I don’t live out in nowheresville, either. I 'm talking about where I work, which is downtown Manhattan. So, yes, people do take religious observances seriously, even minor ones.
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Maybe. Maybe not. Whether or not Jesus was actually born on Dec 25 is really irrelevant. That’s when the birth of the Christian Messiah is celebrated. A similar example would be Easter. The date of Easter moves from year to year. However, in their celebration of the day, Christians aren’t claiming that Jesus arose on March 28 (or whatever date). They are simply celebrating his return from the dead on that day. So, regardless of whether or not Jesus was born on Dec 25, it is still the day on which his birth is celebrated.
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Which is all beside the point. It’s still a holiday with Christian roots and is still, in the eyes of many, many people, a Christian holiday.
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So? Just because some secular trappings have arisen around it, that still doesn’t mean that it isn’t, at it’s core, a Christian holiday.
One can personally choose not to celebrate the American historical events of Independence day and instead simply focus on fireworks and barbeque. But that doesn’t change the fact that it is still an American holiday. Likewise, you can choose to secularize Christmas, but, if it walks like a Christian holiday, and it quacks like a Christian holiday and it looks like a Christian holiday, then at it’s core it’s a Christian holiday; regardless of what you choose to call it.
Sheesh! I never thought I have to argue the point that Christmas is a Christian holiday!
I agree with Sqweels. Christmas is now a Secular Holiday also. Rudolph, Santa, Frosty, et al are secular symbols, not religous ones. And many other traditions are borrowed from Pagan Holidays- Yule logs, Xmas trees, Mistletoe, etc.
Note that the date was NOT selected by the early Church Fathers to “compete with Saturnalia”- there were scads of Roman holidays- no day selected would have been far away from one. And, some honestly (altho likely wrongly) calculated the Birth of Jesus to Dec 25th.
OK, for those who don’t want a Christian “Yule”- play up the secular aspects, and skip the manger scene. Not hard to do. Yes, I agree, if I was Jewish, I’d not put a big deal on Christmas either, but let’s not go too far “bah humbug” either. What would I do? Have a few really non-religous decorations (winter stuff) and a few presents for the kids. But that’s just me. One freind of mine had his sister marry a rather devout Jew- and they now return X-mas cards & presents unopened. That’s just plain rude.
Zev, Cmkeller- when did the tradition of “Channukah Gelt” come in? I know the “bush” and more or less “Christmasization” of the Holiday is mostly a recent American thing, but I know “gelt” is older- but how old?
Maybe I’ll try reverse psychology: Jews, Christmas is for gentiles only! All those caught making merry, decking the halls, or wishing peace on Earth in the last week in December will be subject to re-education in the virtues of guilt. Eggnog ist verboten! Santa Claus is the bloated lackey of the imperialist Toy Mongers!
It’s really easy to say ‘assimilate’ when you’re part of the dominant culture. But it sure looks different when it’s the dominant culture trying to assimilate you.
Dollars to donuts you don’t see many christians observing passover or yom kippur in Israel.
So it’s just all the feelings of resentment that prevents some folks from joining in on the Season’s spirit of good will? I just think that’s sad and unnecessary, that’s all.
It depends on what kind of wing-dings they got goin’ on. A lot of non-Irish celebrate St. Patrick’s Day.
Who’s saying anything about not joining in on a spirit of good will? You can do that, though, without practicing another religion’s holy days.
Look, you don’t think Christmas is religious because you take it for granted. So, when you’re in the stores, you don’t pay attention to the music that says “God rest ye merry, gentlemen, let nothing you dismay, for Jesus Christ our Savior was born on Christmas day.”, or "Round yon virgin, mother and child. You don’t pay attention to the fact that on top of those “secular” Christmas trees, there’s a star or an angel. You don’t think about the fact that the character your kids are hitting letters up for new dirtbikes is a modern incarnation of a fourth century Greco-Turkish saint. You don’t think about the fact that the very holiday is named Christ-Mass. You don’t do any of those things, but that’s ok. You don’t have to. It’s your holiday.
This isn’t resentment…it’s just the realization that Christmas is fundimentally and basically a Christian holiday, and that some non-Christians might be uncomfortable practicing a foreign religion’s holiday…even the non-religious parts of it.
I was kind of surprised at the way this topic has went. It looks like we’re still more comfortable if everyone at least appears to be just like us. If they don’t participate, then they just aren’t trying to fit in? That whole thought process is strange to me. It’s prejudice hiding behind friendship or some sort of all for one thing. However someone chooses to honor their religion is sacred and I admire it. It often makes me feel like I should be doing more. Zev, CmKeller, I hope you’re never like us. Turning Christmas into a secular holiday is not one of our proudest achievements.
No matter how much people push the secular aspects of Santa, Rudolph, and Frosty, they are are Christian symbols to me, first and foremost. No amount of TV specials and popular culture is capable of changing that for me. You may not see it because it’s always been around you, but it’s very Christian to me.
It is conceivable that in a few generations Christmas will lose it’s religious meaning, but I doubt it.
Yom Kippur is a bad example. It’s not a festival - it’s a holiday as in holy day. Nonetheless, it is traditional in Israel that nobody drives on Yom Kippur, except for REAL EMERGENCIES. That’s everyone - religious guys, atheists, christians, Muslims… (OK, I assume that inside Arab villages out in the middle of nowhere this isn’t true - but definitely so in Tel Aviv). Everyone, their dog and their cat is outside riding bicycles…PLUS you often see some visiting digniatary getting dragged to Shul along with his/her host.
(As an aside - Seeing a whole society just SHUT DOWN for a day is a very moving phenomenon. I’m a HARD atheist, and if I happen to be abroad on Yom Kippur I’ll hardly notice it even came and went, but I wouldn’t want this to change here in Israel)
Pesach - plenty of tourists and non-Jewish friends of people WILL be invited to seder - and will often accept.
All that being said, the comparison is flawed to begin with, since even in Israel, the Christian minority is the small outpost of a very large worldwide group. And that matters! There are also far fewer mixed communities (and where these exists, for instance in Yafo (Jaffa), everyone gets the Jewish holidays off at school, etc…
In all my life, I have never heard of anyone burning a Christmas tree. Or considered one an “artifact of worship”, which to my ears verges on, yes, idolatry.
I’d like to see some explanation of where this idea comes that anyone is trying to “assimilate” anyone else. That is not what embracing the diversity within our fundamental human unity is about, and it is not the intent of any nonevangelical religionist.
An assertion that members of a particular religion should be the sole celebrants of a holiday’s secular, cultural accretions as well as its religious ones, because they’re inherently tainted by religious associations, is divisive and deserves exposure.
zev, I appreciate your feelings about the meaning of Hanukkah, but I’d like to understand how the ability of the ancient Jews’ success in surviving slavery and oppression really correlates to maintaining a separatist identity within an eclectic, diverse democracy. You do seem to be equating those, and I’m not at all convinced that it’s appropriate in this culture.
I’m an atheist myself, but I also enjoy Christmas as a secular activity. It certainly makes it easier to celebrate the holiday because of the secularized way in which we tend to view Santa Claus (not to mention the relatively recent Frosty and Rudolph characters); in addition, I find it’s much easier to convince people to see ballet if I suggest that we see the Nutcracker. It’s an extremely fun time of the year for me. And acceptance of Christmas as an activity (and to a lesser degree, Easter with its funny bunny) is made easier because of my history of celebrating it when I was younger and a Catholic.
Regardless, even though I view it through a secular set of sights, I agree with zev, Telemark, ** Jonathan Chance**, et alia, that it’s still very much a Christian holiday. To remember that, all I have to do is, as Captain Amazing said, turn on the radio and listen to the numerous songs dealing with the religious aspect. While I find those songs pleasing and fun to listen to, they still represent why Christmas is celebrated. In addition, should one want to see how it’s still considered to be a religious holiday, all one would have to do is drop by nearly any Christian church on either Christmas Eve or Christmas Day and see the parking lots packed full. (Not to mention, as in my area, the many fliers sent out as invitations to local church pageants, worship services, etc…)
And while it’s true that I know many Jewish families in the Johnson County area of Kansas (where I spent my childhood) who participate in the gift-giving aspect of Christmas, I find them to be the exception; and I do not fault the families who don’t participate as not “being in the spirit”. It’s not their spirit (so-to-speak) which is being celebrated.
Every time someone says ‘go ahead and celebrate!’ they’re saying ‘stop being different…be like me!’ they’re not celebrating or encouraging diversity…they’re damaging it.
Diversity is about enjoying those things that make us different. Christians and Jews, Lefties and Righties (a particular bugaboo for Lady Chance), and so forth.
But saying ‘join us’ is about asking for conformity.
:shrug: Suit yourself. But it’s not that easy to see how “enjoying those things that make us different” can only be practiced by remaining separate from each other. That’s not an obvious meaning of “diversity”, nor is it clear that those who wish to remain separate are actually enjoying those things at all.
What more can I say about your claim that you’re being told to conform except that you’re mistaken?
