You can fill up a page with a list of the Holiday activities you can join in without practicing another religion’s holy days. Unlike some other holidays, THE Holidays is not a tight wad of religious observance but a smorgasboard of opportunities.
To you? This is indicitive of the weakness of all these arguments. And what aspect of Christianity do these things symbolize? It’s clear enough what a manger scene symbolizes, but Santa symbolizes the spirit of giving, and I’m not the one saying this spirit ought not to transcent religious boundries.
How many times do you have to be told that Christmas is fundamentally and basically an observation of the winter solstice? The dark days of late December would suck without something fun to look forward to.
The Grinch’s heart grew ten times, they say.
But not all the Whos in Whoville sang “Hagu Dora” that day.
No, the little Jew Whos cried “boo-hoo-hoo”
And here is where you are wrong. While Jesus may or may not have been born on Dec 25, that is the day that is currently observed to commemorate the birth of the Christian Messiah. The fact that the date may or may not have been chosen because of it’s closeness to the winter solstice is really beside the point. The way it is currently celebrated, it is a Christian holiday, commemorating a seminal event in the Christian religion. The fact that some secular trapping have risen up around is doesn’t change the core of what it is.
As I said before: If it walks like a Christian hoilday, and it looks like a Christian holiday and it quacks like a Christian holiday; it’s a Christian holiday. It doesn’t make a difference how you dress a duck up – deep down it’s still a duck.
Hee hee … zev called Christmas a duck ! that’s great.
I was raised Anglican but soon grew out of it. The best Christmas Day I have ever spent was in London, England, when the tube doesn’t run on Dec 25th (I guess everyone in London is either celebrating Christmas or has nothing better to do?!), I woke up to an empty house, put on some music, did some chores I’d been meaning to catch up on … it was great !
I’ve always had a problem with Christmas for the reasons listed above: forced conformity = assimilation. I do not believe that the son of God was born on this day, blah blah blah, and I kind of resent the forced goodwill that’s sucked out of us. I should think of the poor at this time of the year? Does that mean I shouldn’t think of the poor at other times of the year?
At the same time, though, there is one major thing I like about it: it’s the time when you see people you haven’t seen since last year. For me this has usually meant people coming home from school for the holidays. I don’t quite know what to do with the fact that the reason they all come home is because they are expected to conform to Christian traditions.
I’m very happy to see that this is an issue that has taken root in popular culture: Happy Festivus, everyone! Or, as my friend’s mom (a refugee from a heavily Salvation Army family) likes to say : “Take the Christ OUT of Christmas.” I wish there was some way that we could do that, to have a time when everyone from every tradition can celebrate together in neutral territory, but telling non-Christians to chill out and celebrate with us isn’t going to do it.
Valentines Day is. Independence Day and Thanksgiving we do consider relevant, because they are “ours” as much as any other Americans’. They do not commemorate or symbolize anything whose origins are idolatrous.
Elvis:
To you and the people you know, perhaps. But that doesn’t change the fact that for millions of Christians, everything about the tree is symbolic of something relating to the birth or life of JC.
And something doesn’t need to actually be the object of worship in order for it to be forbidden in the Jewish religion as idolatry.
Loopydude:
I imagine so, considering that he himself was Jewish! ;j
Jonathan Chance:
Great, now I’ve got Yakov Smirnoff in my head saying "In Russia, dominant culture assimilates you!
sqweels:
And is that where the whole American “secular” trapping of “peace on Earth and good will to all men” and fuzzy-wuzzy secular general niceness comes from? Or is all that based on the original notion that this holiday celebrates the birth of JC, the “prince of peace” who brings universal atonement and bliss to those who accept him as their savior?
Christmas as we know it is associated with certain things because kindness is associated with JC. Even the secular Christmas icons such as Frosty, Rudolph and the Grinch were written with this in mind, notwithstanding that the religious reference is not overt. Even this idea that some of you have advanced that the December holidays and their associated icons can be a celebration of diversity is merely from the fact that in the modern USA, diversity and tolerance are considered to be an expression of niceness, which association with this time of year is because of JC. It ain’t from Saturnalia, it ain’t from some “ancient Western cultural-but-not-necessarily-religious” need to celebrate the winter solstice, it’s from the celebration of December 25th as the birth of JC.
I’m all for peace on Earth, and when the UN (or some similar organization) picks a date with no religious significance to be “Universal Happiness and Brotherhood Day,” I’ll join everyone in the celebrations. But that’s a far cry from me adapting Christain or ancient pagan religious practices.
Christmas does have a Christian background. But Yule is pagan. And “the Holidays” is non-sectarian and secular. Thus, one can & should celebrate “the season” without nessesarily going for all the Christian trappings. **Pravnick ** makes an excellent point in that both Valentines & Halloween have Christian background too. Now, of course some Fundamentalist Christians distain Halloween as “pagan”!:dubious: :rolleyes: Mistletoe, the Yule log, the tree, and holly are all Yule and pagan or folk customs- NOT Christian at all.
Walloon - I’m with you- never even heard of those customs until today.
Captain Amazing one could give an argument that Santa has a Christian background- and thus Rudolph. But Frosty is a winter thing, like Jack Frost- nothing to do with Christmas per se except they are both connected to winter, snow, etc. Oh, and Angels aren’t just Christian- both the Jewish & Moslem faith have Angels- in some case the very same angels, note.
IMHO there are two holidays on Dec 25th- they simply share the same date, and by custom & carelessness they have admixed a bit. We have a Solstice/yule/winter folk celebration with Yule Logs, Trees, Frosty, Mistletoe, Jack Frost, Holly, etc. Then we have Christmas with the Nativity scene, 3 Wise men, etc. Santa & Ruldolph are a bit of both (note that Santa is also rooted in Ukko- a Finish god, “Julenisse”- who are pagan gnomes from Scandinavia, and Tsai Sen Yeh, a Chinese god, etc). One can celebrate the Season & the date without celebrating the Christian aspects.
Let me put it this way- if Independence Day just happened toco-incided with a Christian holiday, and the two got a little mixed up- would you still refuse to celebrate our Nations Birthday as an American? Do you celebrate Valentines day and/or Halloween?
Then, even being a devout Jew or Atheist, one can celebrate “the Season” IMHO.
Zev- got a better answer that Captain Amazing on Gelt ?
And you’ll find that Orthodox Jews don’t celebrate Valentine’s Day or Halloween either, for those same reasons. Now, if we don’t celebrate those days which, for the most part, have lost any real religious significance, do you really think we’re going to celebrate Christmas which still has a great deal of it’s religious significance.
And, in the end, it doesn’t make a difference if the origin is Christian or pagan; the end result is still the same as far as Orthodox Jews are concerned. So, the argument that Dec 25 wasn’t Jesus’ birthday; or that Christmas (or Yule) is really just Saturnalia dressed up for modern times is, in the end, irrelevant.
I’m afraid I don’t know the origins of the custom off the top of my head. I can research it for you, however, if you like. Or maybe one of our more knowledgeable DOTJOF (such as cmkeller, IzzyR or RedNaxela) can provide more info.
First, for the record, let me point out that it wasn’t me who’s talking about the religious nature of Frosty or Rudolph…that was Telemark. But, for an expanded answer on Hannukah Gelt…it comes from a tradition in Eastern Europe in the 18th century to give charity on Hannukah to poor Yeshiva students to help them support themselves while they were getting an education. Then, as time went on, it mutated into just a “give money to kids” thing.
And, with all due respect, you don’t have “two different holidays on the same day”…you have one holiday…Christmas, that, because it was practiced by the dominant culture for so long, adopted traditions…and a lot of these traditions aren’t religious in themselves…but developed out of the practice of the religious holiday.
And angels aren’t just Christian too, but the angel on top of the Christmas tree is…it represents the angel that appeared to shepherds to tell them about Jesus’s birth.
In the interest of respect and integrity, I would not invite someone to share a celebration of duck if I knew they had religious convictions that run contrary to duck. I would invite them to share in some other way, on some other day. But no duck. I do like the duck analogy though.
We can’t ignore there is a HUGE doctrinal difference in the Jewish faith and Christianity. And for them to participate in anything related to the HUGE difference is a breach of faith, not some anti-social stand. Downplaying religions role in Christmas doesn’t change anything. Just for my own information, since all of my education was Christian, why did the Jewish faith believe Jesus was not the Messiah. We didn’t cover that in Sunday School. It never occurred to me until now, that I don’t know. I’ll bet a lot of us don’t. Hmmm…
IWLN
I believe the burden of proof would be on Christians to prove that Jesus is the messiah. From a Jewish perspective, the proof is lacking. To start, the notion of Jesus as Christ does not jibe with the Jewish idea of what the messiah is supposed to be. Near the top of the list has to be that, in Jewish tradition, the messiah is a man. Not god as man. A man. The idea that he is part of the trinity not only contradicts Jewish messianic tradition, it also violates the prime tenet of the Jewish faith: the Lord is one. Put bluntly, Christianity is blasphemy.
Well I guess it’s a good thing I don’t consider myself a Christian anymore or I might be feeling a little huffy right now. I would guess that Christianity believes it has proved the Messiah. Although I can’t say I’ve gotten to a point where I don’t think Jesus was the Messiah, honestly I don’t know. Too many years of being taught that “he” was the most important part of salvation leaves me unable to commit either way. Just saying I don’t know is even hard for me. I can say that even if he was the messiah, I don’t believe Christianity interpreted it correctly. It pretty much leaves out a majority of the worlds population and that makes it hard for me to reconcile with a loving God. The Jewish idea of the messiah came, I assume, from the old testament? Did it come from any where else? Keep in mind I wasn’t and am not asking anything with the intent to debate it or disagree. I am asking from ignorance. If it bothers you to answer, please don’t.
I am a Christian and I don’t feel huffy at all. I respect and admire my Jewish brothers (if you don’t mind me calling you so) regardless of the difference in some of our religious beliefs.
Jonathan - thank you for setting the record straight on what diversity means. I agree with you. And zev, cmkeller, I’ve laughed and smiled all through your posts. Thank you!
This is the place where ecumenicalism (if that is a word) breaks down. It pretty much happens for all religions. Jesus does not fit the description, unless you squish it and interpret it to make him fit. Prove that Mohammed is not the prophet. Prove that Joseph Smith did not speak to an angel. In those terms, it can’t be done.
From any perspective, from any religion to another, it is like a kid who knows hearing another kid talk about Santa. He can make a big stink about it, or he can just shrug since the belief isn’t hurting anyone.
IWLN, I don’t think that answer was meant to be argumentative at all. You asked why Jews don’t consider Jesus to be the Messiah and kelly answered. As described in the Torah, the Messiah has to fullfil certain characteristics, and Jesus doesn’t. Ergo, he wasn’t the Messiah. In addition, the idea of the Trinity is blasphemous to Jews, in that there can be no division of G-d.
It was simply a statement of Jewish beliefs. The Torah lays out the requirements for the coming of the Messiah, and they haven’t been met yet, so clearly Jesus isn’t the Messiah. Jews were never looking for G-d in human form. I’ll let someone better versed in theology explain what the Messiah was supposed to do, things involving the rebuilding of the temple, etc.
IWLN
What Telemark said. I didn’t mean that Christianity is blasphemy to a Christian. I meant that believing as Christians do would be blasphemous for a Jew. I stated it this stongly because of the subject of this thread. A lot of posters have suggested that Christmas is so secularized that Jews can just blow off the Christian meanings of the holiday and join the party. Some Jews do just that (though I imagine most have a bit of guilt about doing so). But I meant to make it clear that Christmas celebrates beliefs that are completely opposed to those of Judaism. As such, Jews are fully justified in staying away from the festivities.
Again, no offense was meant.
The idea of the messiah does come from the Hebrew Bible, though it is a later development than anything in the Torah, and has been written about by many later writers. I can’t provide cites at this time, but I’m sure other threads have dealt with the subject.
Thank you. I’m sorry I had a knee-jerk reaction to the word blasphemy. Although the Christian doctrine is something I can no longer support, a month isn’t long enough to get it out of my heart. Again I apologize.
If it bothers you to answer, please don’t.