Kelly5078
Thanks. I do respect the strength of your faith. And I would never argue with G-d’s chosen ones.
Next time someone posts to this thread, could you tell me why G-d’s name is spelled without the “o”.
IWLN,
To add to what others have said, Jesus did not meet the Jewish criteria for Messiahship as described in Hebrew scripture. Among othet things, the Messiah is supposed to restore the Temple in Jerusalem, bring world peace and return all Jews to Israel.
He is also supposed to be a human king in the line of David (Jesus was not in the line of David unless Joseph was his natural father…assuming Joseph was actually in the line of David). He is not supposed to be divine, he is not a redeemer of sins and he must not die before he fulfills all the prohesies.
Really, the question is why would Christians try to argue that he was the Messiah of Hebrew scripture.
Actually, it’ s not faith, I’m afraid. It’s more identification. My wife is Jewish, I converted to Judaism, and we raised our children Jewish, but I myself went into the Buddhist camp a number of years ago. Judaism remains a big part of me, even though I turned out to be a lousy convert in the religious sense.
Regardless. The usage of G-d is mainly an orthodox thing. The idea is that the name of God is holy, whether written or spoken. Any form of the name, including the English translation “God,” is treated as holy. If you write the name, and someone gets their hands on it and, say, drops it in garbage, the name has been profaned. So better not to write the name. Another way of getting around it is simply to refer to “Hashem,” i.e., “the Name.”
More mild abuse of the name is also not permitted. If you want to get immediate attention, go into a synagogue (even Reform will do) and put the Bible or a prayer book on the floor. As soon as someone notices, you will be asked to pick it up.
Thanks for the information. I’m turning out to be a lousy convert too. I forgot to figure out where I was going when I left Christianity behind. My best friend has been Buddhist for about 10 years now and she is the happiest I’ve ever seen her. I’ve been reading the cite that DtC gave me about the Jewish Messiah. It’s really odd to be reading the same things I’ve read a hundred times and view them from a completely different perspective. Weird range of emotions from thinking something actually made more sense than what I learned and then all the way to mild outrage at other things. Then amusement at how biased my whole thought process is. Good thing I can laugh at me. Anyway, thanks again for the information. 
I must say, it is kind of funny to see people trying to get the Jews to assimilate, since it fits in so well with the story of Channukah. “C’mon, we don’t mind your religion, diversity is cool. You’re free to be yourselves, everyone’s equal, there’s no discrimination here. As long as you worship Caesar with the rest of us, you can do whatever you like! Oh, and we’ve also got this golden calf over here that won’t take more than a minute…”
I have to say, as an atheist, I used to have Christmas trees and decorations in my home. But my wife is jewish, and we agreed before we married that our kids would be raised jewish. I had a twinge or two giving up the pagan trappings of Christmas, but I got over them. Now we have a tradition of Chinese food and a movie on Dec 25th instead. And of course the rest of my family has holiday decorations and gifts and suchlike anyway, so I’m not missing it as much as I thought I would.
Interesting. I’m a researcher (now in industry). Some of the labs I’ve worked in have been at least half Jewish (it seems to be the rule that whatever ethnicity the PI is, so are a good percentage of the lab), and my boss once was a conservative (not quite orthodox, but kept kosher) Israeli Jew. Every Friday night, especially in winter (when the sun went down at, like, 4:30 PM), there was always a very humorous whirlwind of activity as she piled a heap of tasks she could not finish on me before running out the door. She also had this habit of starting experiments on Fri. that I would have to finish for her on Sat. I spent many a Saturday in the lab. Other reform Jews in the lab finally informed me , after a while, that I was “the shabbat goy”, which is apparently the gentile you hire to do things you’re not allowed to do on the sabbath to avoid working. I also heard many illuminating stories about, for instance, elevators in appartment buildings in Jerusalem that were retrofitted with a randomizing switch that would literally cause the elevator to move mindlessly and unpredictably from one floor to the next. The reason for this, I was told, is that manually operating the elevator on the sabbath is not allowed; but if it just happens to be running and doing its own thing, and you get on, and eventually wind up where you need to be, well, that’s ok. Can’t answer the phone? Aswering machine! Lights? Photosensitive powerswitch!
Now, Christmas came around, usually pretty close to Chanukah, and what did we do? We ordered a bunch of food from (I shit you not), Moshe Dragon in Silver Spring, played (non-Jesus-oriented-Jingle-Bells-type) carols and Jewish folk songs, spun dreidels, etc. I was literally the only (ex-) Catholic in the lab. We had a student intern who was Episcopal or something. One Lebanese Muslim. Two Hungarian Eastern Orthodox. A few folks from China. Couple Hindus. The balance were Jews. Having a holiday party with Christmas and Chanukah decorations all together on Dec. 23rd. My orthodox boss was all for it. None of my reform colleagues seemed to mind. I certainly didn’t see a whole lot of guilt. None, in fact. You seem to think I have just concocted this idea that if you stuffy Jews would loosen up and compromise your morals, we all could get along, and I’d feel better because you’d be just like me. Well, pardon me, but you’re f***ing wrong. I’ve seen it in action. Prior to, I wouldn’t have thought it possible, in all honesty. But it is. It’s quite possible for devout individuals (and some who don’t have a faithful bone in their body, such as myself) to come together in the spirit of a holiday celebration, enjoy one another’s company, eat, drink, be merry, and there seems, maybe like the shabat goy, to be acceptible workarounds that perhaps bend the rules without breaking them. It’s called pluralism, and it’s wonderful. If an orthodox Israeli can party with a Lebanese Muslim while “Winter Wonderland” is playing on a boom box, I refuse to think this isn’t a Very Good Thing.
Now, my boss one time floated the idea of inviting me to a seder, but that got nixed because her parents, who were over from Israel to help her husband with her daughter, probably would feel a little uncomfortable. It would have been all Hebrew, since here parents’ English wasn’t so hot anyway, so probably just as well. The unspoken message was, though nothing precluded me from participating in the seder ("righteous gentiles can make the cut, from what I was told), but it wasn’t my gig. It was a very special thing for her family, a real coming together for them and their faith, and the final analysis was my presence would have been uncomfortable for some. I wasn’t offended. Not in the slightest. I know the difference between holy day and “holiday”. I certainly wouldn’t have felt like “well, you did Xmas, you big hipocrite, so why not have me for a seder?” I, and I daresay, some devout Jews out there, think there is a distinct difference in “sanctity”, for lack of a better word.
I’m not in the conversion business, and I don’t need other people to conform. My heart is genuinely warmed, though, by people from all walks coming together, and I would hate to think that an innocent holiday party would be construed as some kind of blasphemous attempt at assimilation. Please, give some of us more credit.
Really? Burning is a very old and common (but of course not universal) practice in church tradition to dispose of sacred objects.
In fact, isn’t burning considered the most respectful way to dispose of the American flag, which is the symbol of a nation? How much more respect should we give to physical symbols of God’s grace? The Christmas tree is a symbol that reminds of of Christmas and the Incarnation of Christ. A lot of people left with a tattered American flag after Independence day would burn it respectfully rather than throw it in the trash; that’s what we’re doing with the trees.
An “artifact of worship” is not the same as an “object of woship.” We don’t worship the trees themselves, which would be idolatry as you say, we use the trees to help us worship – like we use crosses, candles, banners, incense, altars, et cetera.
And, (to end the hijack) I’d prefer Christmas stay a Christian holiday and not be secularized like St. Valentine’s Day or Halloween, which have become meaninglessly commercial. I appreciate zev, cmkeller and the others who still acknowledge the religious character of the holiday.
I should add that I don’t belong to a small backwoods fundamentalist church (not that there’s anything wrong with that) – this is a large Anglican parish in a large-ish city.
But yet it bothers you when they don’t conform in this area. Everyone has different experiences and different ways to honor their faith. This is about respecting someone’s right to feel differently. It’s not the greatest analogy, but if I worked with or were friends with a group of people who worshipped Satan and they were having their annual Satanmass parties and function; I would have to decline to participate. It might not be wrong for them, but it would be very wrong for me. You might think that is a ridiculous comparison, but it’s not. Now while I admit I am not real fond of the word blasphemous, I can understand from the previous perspective why it would seem so to them, since I consider “Satanmass” blasphemous. Christianity humanized G-d in a way that is very wrong to the Jewish faith. The right not to participate in the Christian religious season and functions is theirs. This is not about a party, again; this is about honoring their faith.
You either ignored what I said, or you wish to misrepresent me. And yes, the Satanic party analogy is extremely weak. Frankly, using such an extreme (and absurd) analogy seems more like a diversionary tactic than an attempt at offering an argument of substance.
If my conservative Jew boss said “I’m not doing the holiday party thing because it’s contrary to my faith”, we would have said absolutely NOTHING to her except “see you after Christmas!”, and felt nothing except “too bad, she’s fun at a party.” Does the fact that my PI was a Jew and helped organize the affair help disabuse you of the idea that all holiday parties around xmas are part of some gentile plot to coerce Jews into acts of immorality?
What I object to, rather, is the idea that one would accuse others who participate in such gatherings, or who would genuinely enjoy people from all walks of life to partake of the fun of such gatherings, of being motivated by the need to promote their religious beliefs or sociopolitical morays; or worse, that some of them are so weak in their own faith that they would compromise their dignity and allow themselves to be coerced. You’re hinting I’m a sophist, and suggesting they lack integrity. That’s wrong, plain and simple.
My statements aren’t about the need for or the rightness of conformity. Don’t characterise them as such. They’re about the happy results of a diverse environment (few and far between in this effed-up world) and the fact that sometimes people can derive what they like from what a society has to offer, turn it into a rewarding experience for all involved, and somehow still remain true to what they are, unsullied, and uncompromised. The tone of many of the posts here is that is not possible. Worse, that its all part of a program to homogenize and assimilate. Hogwash. Practice your faith the way you like; don’t heap guilt on others for wanting to share with friends.
I really wasn’t ignoring what you said or not intentionally if it seems so. I knew you would not get the Satanmass analogy because you think it not relevant. It is. I used this analogy because a “typical” Christian would be able to discern an element of blasphemy and refuse involvement.
I don’t think there is a “gentile plot”. I merely think we are clueless when it comes to understanding why a Jew would refuse to join in. It is not a big deal to us, so we see them as inflexible rather than respecting their values.
Well, since I had to look the word “sophist” up, I don’t think I was. I don’t have a judgement on whether someone is right or wrong to participate, only that I think it’s their right to choose. If I were a Christian and my peers went to the Satanmass, I would probably believe they were wrong, but still acknowledge their right to decide these things for themselves.
Your statement is an opinion based on your experience that some Jews can partake in the holiday and still be true to what they believe. Some cannot and have the right to say so. They even have the right to an opinion about others that seem to be less committed to their faith. I don’t believe there is a “program” to homogenize and assimilate, but our tendency is to do just that. We are most comfortable with diversity, when it is superficial and doesn’t affect day to day actions to any great extreme. This may not be true for you and if it’s not, that’s great. But, go back and read this thread again and note especially the arguments that Christmas isn’t really about Christ anyway. There is an irony in that. Inviting Jews to attend Christmas functions because, well, Christ won’t have any real involvement in them anyway; just ignore him. I was not trying to offend you or make light of your rationale, I just don’t agree.
If I had been that Israeli PI, I might have done the same thing. Christians get a great deal of joy out of this season and as the boss, she would be expected to take the lead. It’s an act of kindness and respect, which are as Jewish as Moses. That’s very different from putting up a tree in my own home! If Christmas is really about the solstice, then celebrate it on Dec. 21. Sure, the celebrations have some pagan elements to them, but that doesn’t make it any less a Christian holiday. Nothing springs into being fully formed, completely uninfluenced by the society around it. Christianity contains elements of other faiths, but it’s still a religion in its own right, and borrowed elements like Satan or the idea of a resurrected god are perfectly Christian.
If Christmas isn’t a Christian holiday, what the heck is?
Bzzzzt! A lot of non-Irish and Irish alike use St. Patrick’s Day, the day of the death of the man responsible for introducing the Gospel of Christ to Ireland (something which has played a major role in the development of Irish society from that point forward straight up to the present time) as an excuse to mangle traditional gaelic phrases, wear stupid clothes and more than anything, get drunk off their butts and make fools of themselves. They aren’t celebrating St. Patrick’s Day, they’re celebrating a bacchanal that’s co-opted a religious observance for its own purposes.
Divisiveness is only a negative thing when it is artificial. Rightfully dividing people along true divisions, such as the obvious and inherent divisions between Jews and Christians (or, as is more appropos in this argument, Jews and non-Jews) and recognizing that there are differences in their observances, their celebrations, their society and their culture is not a harmful thing.
Jews are not Christians. They do not need to be Christians nor do they need to associate themselves with activities which are closely related to Christian observances, be those activities the “cultural accretions” surrounding Christmas or those surrounding Easter or those surrounding any other fundamentally Christian holiday which has been co-opted into larger societal celebrations mainly due to the predominance of (nominal) Christianity in the population.
Why is it so dreadful that Jews reject Christmas related folderol, since it isn’t their holiday and they happen to have their own, wholly unrelated holiday that generally falls around the same time of year with its own unique, culturally significant, extremely enjoyable celebrations? What possible harm can come to anyone if Jews (or Fundamentalist Christians or those who are simply opposed to lying to their children) do not teach their children that some magical man with abilities which certainly rival those of the Judeo-Christian God (omniscience, omnipresence and supernatural abilities) will break into their house and leave them presents if they’re well-behaved? Who is hurt if Jews reject the notion of a decorated tree in their homes (something which the 10th chapter of Jeremiah can be intepreted to condemn, btw) as a seasonal decoration?
“The holidays” may be secular and non-sectarian, but the trappings of the holidays are decidedly tied to either Christianity or paganism. Neither are acceptable to Jews. (Or Moslems or adherents of a variety of religions.) Why should they accept those trappings which they find to be objectionable because others claim that they aren’t?
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by DrDeth
**IMHO there are two holidays on Dec 25th- they simply share the same date, and by custom & carelessness they have admixed a bit. We have a Solstice/yule/winter folk celebration with Yule Logs, Trees, Frosty, Mistletoe, Jack Frost, Holly, etc. **/QUOTE]Nice thought, but you might want to check with your local pagans/wiccans and ask them what they think of the fact that you just co-opted their holiday of the season and changed its date. Yule/Solstice happens on the date of the Solstice which is the 21st, not the 25th. And while Yule Logs, Mistletoe and Holly (and perhaps trees, though not necessarily and quite likely not with lights and tinsel) are part and parcel of traditional pagan Yule celebrations, Jack Frost, Frosty are certainly not, as traditional paganism as a rule celebrates and incorporates elements of nature.
At its heart, this argument boils down to this – isn’t it up to each of us to determine what we think is appropriate to our lives and homes within the confines of our operating principles, be those principles religious or secular? If so, by what right does anyone go about claiming that it is incorrect for anyone to different choices about observances they are willing to take part in?
TeaElle, Well, I said most of what you said before, but never tried starting with Bzzzzt!! Maybe they’ll listen now. ;)
Sometimes, mixing cultures can produce some marvelous results. I’ve posted this elsewhere on these Boards, earlier, but I love it so much, I think it deserves to be shared more widely. Click here for Klezmer versions of Christmas carols. Absolutely priceless!
True for some of the “trappings”, not true for others. “Holidays” is a plural, btw - it isn’t just Christmas and not just 12/25.
My biggest objection is to the claim that it represents an attempt at assimilating Jews when it is no such thing. No matter how much some of you are told that there is no religious significance to much of the holiday season, you’ll answer “There are a few people who feel otherwise about some of it, therefore it is, therefore you’re all out to assimilate us and destroy our religion from within even if you yourselves don’t know it, so just go away and leave us alone”. That may be an extreme way to put it, but it’s how many of the posts in this very interesting thread come across, and that’s a shame because it’s so unnecessary. But is it wrong?
Religious significance is in the eye of the beholder. If I think that something has enough correlation to another religion that I’m uncomfortable including it in my life/celebrations/observances, once again I ask, who are you to tell me that I’m wrong?
I just want to reiterate this:
You’d think some things would be obvious, wouldn’t you?
It always seemed obvious to me… 
Zev Steinhardt