Jews & Christians: does God's moral authority derive from his wisdom or his power?

While I am officially an atheist (and unofficially am very fond of Athena and am prepared to abandon my non-faith given the slightest clue she is real ;)), I am not one of those skeptics who thinks that Christians are universally stupid, deluded, or evil. I am also not interested in gotcha threads; I’m just wondering what y’all think on this issue and whether it derives from your church’s doctrines, books you have read, or your own musings. I’m aware that certain … persons … on the board will take any opportunity to attack Christians; I apologize in advance if that happens in this thread.

Anyway, let me recapitulate and expand on the thread question, which I am aiming aiming specifically at Christians and Jews:

Granted that God exists and has genuine moral authority, does that authority derive from his superior power or from his superior wisdom? Put another way: does God command some actions and forbid others because their immorality is an essential quality rather than the result of his command; or are certain acts wrong and others right only because of God’s word?

Thanks in advance.

With no biblical basis for my following statement, let me say that my opinion is that god’s moral authority derives from his omniscience. He is all knowing therefore he knows the difference between good and evil. he has given us this knowledge or biblically we acquired this knowledge through the disobedience of A and E, either way. he knows, it is in his nature. the whole omniscience omnipresent omnipotence thing.

God’s moral authority is of immense power and wisdom and its wisdom is only exceeded by its power.

I’m not sure you answered the question.

I would say that the Judaic view is that what G-d has forbidden, he has done because those actions are damaging to the soul. This would be in the “knowledge” camp as defined by the OP.

This begs the question, “Then couldn’t he have created the human soul in a way that those actions are not damaging?” That would seem to go into the “power” category - forbidden just because G-d said so. I don’t think this is the Judaic perspective on the nature of the soul. Per Genesis, the human soul is made “in the image of G-d”, so these are actions which, in performing the best possible translation of Divine existence into the mortal experience, would be contrary to G-d’s nature.

Therefore, I believe that the answer would be “knowledge.”

This would mean that “good and evil” exist externally to God. What authority, them do those things come from?

That reference is on the tip of my tongue.

I could swear it was from Dude, where’s my car.

I really shouldn’t be getting into this thread.

My understanding is that neither (of either pairing) is the correct interpretation. God’s authority does not stem from anything. Rather, it is that God is authority: what He decrees is moral and good is moral and good.

Like parents, God’s answer is, “Because I said so.”

You know, Logos.

All morality derives from God’s nature. It is actually defined by His qualities.

For example; He cannot lie - not because it’s beyond His power, but it’s contrary to His nature. Anything that is contrary to God’s nature is wrong.

As for authority, if He created everything, He gets to make the rules. He will of course, do this in accordance with His nature.

'nother atheist poking his nose in…

I seem to remember a Biblical verse saying that God can do whatever he wants to us, even destroy us, just as a potter can break the pots he makes. That lone specific verse, taken out of context, would seem to point in the direction of “power.”

But…taking lone verses out of context is kinda sloppy… Iron chariots and all…

Trinopus

So morality is arbitrary, then.

The Bible contains examples of God telling lies. For instance, God lied to Adam and Eve when he told them that they would die if they ate from the tree of knowledge.

I don’t even understand what you are saying. I exist externally from God, as in I am not God or God had nothing to do with my existence?

How is that a lie? They did die.

Can I ask that y’all actually discuss the question I asked, rather than side issues?

You said that God has perfect knowledge of good and evil. That implies that God has nothing to do with creating or deciding it. That it just IS, with him or without him.

No they didn’t, at least not as a result of eating the fruit. They got kicked out of Eden and lived for hundreds more years.

This is actually something I have given a lot of thought to and so I think I have an answer, but I’m not sure if it’s exactly the answer you’re looking for. But the basic idea is that moral authority necessarily follows from omnscience which necessarily follows from omnipotence.

Consider this model, whereby the universe can be represented as a series of choices represented in a tree-like structure and each choice has a certain degree of moral relevance. We can relate this model to sort of a massively multiplayer game theory, but we can simplify it to something more easily conceptualized like chess. Sometimes, a particular move in chess is obviously superior to others, sometimes its a lot more subtle or even counter-intuitive, but the only way to be absolutely certain that a particular move is optimal is to actually build the entire space and evaluate it from a min-max perspective.

Now, obviously, as humans, we’re not able build out the entire state-space for chess, but we can still look some number of moves ahead and build rules that help us determine what states are more or less advantageous toward furthering the ultimate goal. These rules are akin to moral rules in this analogy. But God, being omniscient, would be like actually being able to see and evaluate the entire state-space and give the absolute optimal move which will likely often fit along with the rules but will occassionally not fit them for some reason or another.

And so, this would be like seeing this space and evaluating certain generalized scenarios from different states and drawing general rules. Just like a beginning player will have broader rules that roughly fit more scenarios but work less often and a more advanced player will have a larger set of more specialized rules, morality works in much the same way. We’re in the process of traversing this massive state space that we can’t possibly fathom, so we have to stick to certain guidelines that will best lead us toward the goal. As we, as a species, have gotten more developed, our ability to understand the rules, and thus our ultimate understanding of them, has improved. But this entire time, being omniscient and omnipotent, God is able to observe the entirety of the choices and their consequences and provide us with guidelines toward the goal.

Of course, this leaves one question where the analogy doesn’t work as well, in that in game theory there’s an obvious goal to work toward, winning; there isn’t something as obvious with morality. Some might try to say something like “best for the most people” or “happiness” but those are sort of nebulous goals that don’t quantify them. I have my own thoughts on what that goal may actually be, that, in fact, choice isn’t merely a means to an end but is an end in and of itself but I haven’t really managed to flesh that aspect out sufficiently yet.

So, in the end, it all boils down to that omniscience which derives from omnipotence, that if you can necessarily see all the possible outcomes for every possible decision and make a judgment about which one yields the best possible set of results, then it seems to me that moral authority naturally follows from that.

And then died. So what he said was true… from a certain point of view. :slight_smile:

Sorry Skald… I really couldn’t resist that.

To the original question… also not a theist, but raised as vaguely so, and the impression I always got was: “My house, my rules”.

and died.
They would not have died if they hadn’t eaten the fruit.
Follow with me for a sec, and I must say I can’t believe we are discussing A and E like we know anything. Assuming the entire biblical story is literally correct. there was a tree of knowledge and a tree of life. God said if you eat the tree of knowledge you will die. We are to assume if they didn’t, they would live. But they did, and they died. I understand you are thinking they eat, they die right away. But, they died because they got kicked out of Eden because they disobeyed and ate. it’s like I tell my daughter do not eat this 35S or you will die. no she will not die as soon as she eats it, but the radiation will eventually kill her.

God knew if they ate, he would have to kick them out, they couldn’t eat the fruit from the tree of life, they would die. Instead of going through the whole “if you smoke your lungs will have smoke in them, your white blood cells will react to it, causing inflammation, then some will ingest the tar and such and many will develop cancers because its carcinogenic, and if one cancer is not picked up by your immune system it will grow and cause you problems and kill you” he says “if you smoke, you will die”

I’m sorry, I just don’t see the lie. if he said it will kill you , it is poisonous, then yes, but he said if you eat you will surely die, which they did.