Jews & Christians: does God's moral authority derive from his wisdom or his power?

[carnivorousplant]

@strugglingChristian

and Skald, I am really intrigued by your love of Athena. She was my favorite too in high school but I can’t remember why now.

Probably the breasts.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@Koxinga

Wow, you’re cranky today. Usually you can discern the point and address it intelligently, even if you don’t happen to like the messenger.

You’re right. I dismissed the response without addressing it, but damned if I can see how it really responds at all.

[AClockworkMelon]

His power, of course. His ability to send people to Heaven or Hell gives him the power to say that you shouldn’t worship other gods in the same way that daddy’s belt gives him the power to say that you shouldn’t stay up after ten.

[Larry_Borgia]

Power. Read the end of Job. God does what he wants when he wants to, and woe to the man that questions that. He’s basically Cartman with the power of Dr. Manhattan.

“I am Who am!”

I Always hear a “bitches” at the end of that.

[strugglingChristian]

I have my own and am not sexually into them so definitely NOT why I like her

[AClockworkMelon]

@strugglingChristian

I have my own and am not sexually into them so definitely NOT why I like her

Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

[strugglingChristian]

@AClockworkMelon

Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

I’m new here and you’ve lost me. I don’t have a newsletter and is this a common joke or something?

and thanks Larry Borgia…now I will never hear that without “Bs” at the end. Funny yes, but totally inappropriate thought to have in church where I am more likely to hear those words. thanks.

[Nametag]

@strugglingChristian

I’m new here and you’ve lost me. I don’t have a newsletter and is this a common joke or something?

Yes, it’s from The Simpsons: http://www.snpp.com/episodes/4F10.html

[Miller]

Why can’t it be both, like the late Earl Warren?

Wait, that actually makes sense in this context.

[smiling_bandit]

@Frylock

What is the initial “but” abutted against?

Sorry, against the idea that God enforces what really is good. He doesn’t merely enforce a rationally good order; he embodies goodness. He is a good in a way which Satan is not evil.

[Meatros]

@Blaster_Master

This is actually something I have given a lot of thought to and so I think I have an answer, but I’m not sure if it’s exactly the answer you’re looking for. But the basic idea is that moral authority necessarily follows from omnscience which necessarily follows from omnipotence.

Consider this model, whereby the universe can be represented as a series of choices represented in a tree-like structure and each choice has a certain degree of moral relevance. We can relate this model to sort of a massively multiplayer game theory, but we can simplify it to something more easily conceptualized like chess. Sometimes, a particular move in chess is obviously superior to others, sometimes its a lot more subtle or even counter-intuitive, but the only way to be absolutely certain that a particular move is optimal is to actually build the entire space and evaluate it from a min-max perspective.

Now, obviously, as humans, we’re not able build out the entire state-space for chess, but we can still look some number of moves ahead and build rules that help us determine what states are more or less advantageous toward furthering the ultimate goal. These rules are akin to moral rules in this analogy. But God, being omniscient, would be like actually being able to see and evaluate the entire state-space and give the absolute optimal move which will likely often fit along with the rules but will occassionally not fit them for some reason or another.

And so, this would be like seeing this space and evaluating certain generalized scenarios from different states and drawing general rules. Just like a beginning player will have broader rules that roughly fit more scenarios but work less often and a more advanced player will have a larger set of more specialized rules, morality works in much the same way. We’re in the process of traversing this massive state space that we can’t possibly fathom, so we have to stick to certain guidelines that will best lead us toward the goal. As we, as a species, have gotten more developed, our ability to understand the rules, and thus our ultimate understanding of them, has improved. But this entire time, being omniscient and omnipotent, God is able to observe the entirety of the choices and their consequences and provide us with guidelines toward the goal.

Of course, this leaves one question where the analogy doesn’t work as well, in that in game theory there’s an obvious goal to work toward, winning; there isn’t something as obvious with morality. Some might try to say something like “best for the most people” or “happiness” but those are sort of nebulous goals that don’t quantify them. I have my own thoughts on what that goal may actually be, that, in fact, choice isn’t merely a means to an end but is an end in and of itself but I haven’t really managed to flesh that aspect out sufficiently yet.

So, in the end, it all boils down to that omniscience which derives from omnipotence, that if you can necessarily see all the possible outcomes for every possible decision and make a judgment about which one yields the best possible set of results, then it seems to me that moral authority naturally follows from that.

(Bolding Mine)

This seems close to molinism, with regard to the omniscient part.

As to the bolded part - what do you suspect the ‘end goal’ is? You mention that it is related to free will in and of itself. I’m not sure what you mean here and I do recognize that you admit that you don’t have it all fleshed out - so I’m not going to expect that you have a detailed metaphysical theory ready for debate.

As an aside, I go back and forth on moral matters - the whole metaphysics seems very murky to me. Some days I’m sympathetic to moral realism, other days I’m a non cognitivist. Suffice it is to say, I do not have it all figured out and I try not to pretend to.

[Larry_Borgia]

@strugglingChristian

I’m new here and you’ve lost me. I don’t have a newsletter and is this a common joke or something?

and thanks Larry Borgia…now I will never hear that without “Bs” at the end. Funny yes, but totally inappropriate thought to have in church where I am more likely to hear those words. thanks.

Glad you were amused. Really just being facetious.

[Skald_the_Rhymer]

@strugglingChristian

and Skald, I am really intrigued by your love of Athena. She was my favorite too in high school but I can’t remember why now.

@carnivorousplant

Probably the breasts.

[general zod]
Why do you say these things, when you know I will kill you for it?
[/general zod]

[carnivorousplant]

@Skald_the_Rhymer

[general zod]
Why do you say these things, when you know I will kill you for it?
[/general zod]

So, you’re saying that Athena has unattractive breasts?
Classical statuary may not be safe for work.

[foolsguinea]

@Orr_G

I really shouldn’t be getting into this thread.

My understanding is that neither (of either pairing) is the correct interpretation. God’s authority does not stem from anything. Rather, it is that God is authority: what He decrees is moral and good is moral and good.

Like parents, God’s answer is, “Because I said so.”

You know, Logos.

When I was a kid, I sort of thought something like this. That god’s authority derives from his position as author.

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

This would mean that “good and evil” exist externally to God. What authority, them do those things come from?

Some kind of consequentialist moral theory, I reckon.

[CJJ]

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

So morality is arbitrary, then.

Is it? Now that would be an interesting point to discuss…

I think–in order for any progress to be made on the OP’s question–that this question must first be answered: What is the moral authority (if any exists) in a universe without God?

Atheists IMO are correct in asserting that it’s up to theists to present evidence for the existence of God; we should assume he doesn’t exist until this is done. However, few would argue that morality doesn’t exist (in some form). The theists have a (somewhat) easy answer to why that is, to the point that some infer the existence of morality as proof of God’s existence.

Of course, the theists’ answer can and should be criticized. But I’m hoping that atheists in this thread don’t attack their answer via the well-trodden path of arguing God’s existence. We have plenty of those threads already, and I suspect the OP was written as a way to bait theists into admitting yet again the contradictions inherent in their position.

Don’t get me wrong; I’m not by a long shot trying to argue on behalf of Theism. I’m just interested in seeing an atheist argument that positively asserts something, rather than just falls back to an “atheism is the default state” trope. In short, I’m looking forward to a more direct argument of how morality can be completely explained without God, and seeing the theists play the role of critics for a change.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

An explanation for “morality” which does not have to invoke magic is simply that humans are evolved as a social species, and as such, we have evolved impulses and emotional responses which facilitate the health and survival of communities rather than simply the individual. It’s not really that mysterious. Humans aren’t the only species with “moral” characteristics.

[SecondJudith]

@Skald_the_Rhymer

Granted that God exists and has genuine moral authority, does that authority derive from his superior power or from his superior wisdom?

In rabbinic Judaism, it’s wisdom. The evidence is that when rabbis out-argue God, God says “Oh, actually that’s a really good point” and changes her mind. If God’s authority came from power only, it would be impossible for God to hold an incorrect opinion, but God is corrected by humans sometimes, and admits it.

[Skald_the_Rhymer]

@SecondJudith

In rabbinic Judaism, it’s wisdom. The evidence is that when rabbis out-argue God, God says “Oh, actually that’s a really good point” and changes her mind. If God’s authority came from power only, it would be impossible for God to hold an incorrect opinion, but God is corrected by humans sometimes, and admits it.

Thank you for actually answering the question as asked.

[SecondJudith]

Always happy to help.

For the record (and sorry to continue the tangent, but I think it’s worth clarifying), God does lie in the garden, saying “The day you eat it, you will surely die” (italics mine). The snake (who isn’t Satan) tells the truth. Which is one of the many reasons I love that text.