You are now questioning an impossibility. There is no logical answer to your question.
The assumption you are making then is this:
God said he’s going to send a descendant of David as the Messiah (we’re in agreement on this, right, Jodi?)
At the time God said this, He knew He was NOT going to send a man but Himself.
God then sends Himself.
Your question is a paradox. You are now asking me to answer: “If God lied, would you believe Him?” The very premise of your question is wrong, so there is no answer. I’m sorry if that is not what you are looking for.
Of course, I understand where all this is going. The argument that Jesus, as one of the Trinity, is God. But to me, that, in itself, is an impossibility.
This, of course, distills back down to “He wouldn’t do that.” You might be surprised to know, however, that this is precisely the answer I expected you to give, as even I can see that it’s the only one available to you.
I am truly not trying to box you in, though it must seem that way, but only to flesh out the contours of your beliefs in this regard, which I think I have done, thanks to your candor.
A demonstrated, proven Son of God is not sufficient for you because He would not be of Davidic descent but rather of Godly descent. This, of course, is the point at which we must agree to disagree.
Zev Look. what this basically comes down to is this:
The Greek Jews, with their mistranslated OT, expected the messiah to be born of a virgin.
Therefore, someone made this up and put it in a few of the Gospels.
But, in reality, Joseph was Jesus’s father, and therefore, fits your requirements for a messiah.
Sorry for the inconvenience, but as humans working to promote god’s divine plan, they are bound to screw things up.
My sincerest regrets, that, were you otherwise willing to except Jesus as the messiah, and practice his teachings, and become numbered among the people of the kingdom, except for some smart-ass scribe who, though trying to save others, ultimately fouled things up, you have lost the way. I would hope that this messiah you still await might yet come – but it is your soul on the line so do and believe as you see fit. I am a lost soul too so at least you have company.
sigh No, no. What I mean is that Joseph is the last name given in both lineages, yet one is ascribed to Mary. When I suggested incest, it was joking way to resolve this problem…
The Septuagint may well be the correct “translation”, ie when they did it, they were several hundred years earlier, and might have been closer to the correct connotation, ie, they knew, by tradition, that by “young unmarried maiden”, the specific meaning of “virgin” was meant, instead of only the indication of “virgin”. ie, in English, when you see (in old books) the word “maiden” it can mean “virgin” or “unmarried woman” (who should be, but is not nessesarily, an intact virgin), and you have to guess by context. Since the septuagint scholars were much closer in time to Isaiah than the later compilers in 90AD, they might well have been able to better guess at which connotation of “maiden” (almah) Isaiah meant. Altho the Jews kept VERY good copies, the meanings of words, especially their connotations, tends to wander over a thousand years. If you tried to speak in OT Hebrew in Isreal, they would understand the words, but not exactly the meanings. (As was pointed out to me when I tried to use some OT 'slams" vs a modern Isrealite here a few weeks ago. Altho he knew what they meant, they had lost all their “bite”, ie I was calling him “poltroon & knave”, instead of “idiot & fool”.).
And, in any case, as far as some (at least) Christians are concerned, the souls of Devout Jews are quite 'safe", even without JC.
Thanks, Danielinthewolvesden. If the earlier translation is correct, and both these are req.'s for a messiah, it is no wonder it is taking so long.
The other point that occured to me in an off line debate is that one in four children are illegitimate – although, I think I’m going to pose that to Cecil before I really start throwing that around. But if there is any truth to that, I don’t know how anyone can be proven to have the same Y-chromasone as King David, as surely in the past few thousand years one of their fathers could have been cuckholded.
As for Christians who believe Devout Jews are saved, I still don’t know what a Devout Jew believes. I do know that Christ taught in order to gain eternal life, keeping the commandments is not enough. If a Devout Jew keeps this teaching, they’ll be fine.
A friend in college once informed me that being a Jew, I would go to hell. It ticked me off, but eventually I got over it.
I live in a north eastern Philadelphia neighborhood full of Russian Jews. These are people who were finally able to leave the USSR and come to a country where they can practice their religion freely.
The J4J’s prey on them vultures circling a lost cowboy. The J4J’s present themselves as the only real Jews and tell the immigrants that the J4J’s speak for all the world’s Jews. Their pamphlets are deceptive. There methods are the same as the Moonies or any other cult. The J4J’s target people who are ignorant of Judaism and feed them lies.
I have personally seen these things. I tear up J4J posters and pamphlets when ever I find them. I do not do this to straight forward Christian tracts. Christian missionaries are trying to spread the Truth. J4J’s spread lies, and do so intentionally.
I should have said that Christian missionaries are spreading what they believe is the Truth.
On another note. If God appeared to me, I would have two main questions
1 Where’s the messiah you promised?
2 Would it spoil your vast,eternal plan if I were a wealthy man?
PS Zev, please start your own thread that we may ask you all our questions about the Talmud! I suggest “Ask the Talmud Chuchim”
Have no fear Doc. The devil himself hasn’t be able to spoil God’s plan – only delay it. You may be working against God’s plan, and you may be fouling up “God’s plan for you,” (for lack of a better way of putting it), but eventually God’s going to win. I think. Maybe. ::shrug::
Since you are also clearly talking about JC, I don’t think I’ve missed the point. However, if you’d rather talk in vaguer generalities, I’d still say the same thing: someone of non-Davidic descent who claims the power that historically belongs only to the descendants of David, no matter what his bona-fides might be, is to be regarded with suspicion.
Libertarian:
Nope. Jewish father, non-Jewish mother.
Zev:
Since I doubt either of the three of us will agree to be “the one,” what say we form a Bais Din? Questions answered, new moons declared (next one on Wednesday!), vows anulled!
