Job security in the US?

Factual Questions
1

Security as in: how well is the US employee protected from being fired?

In the Netherlands, where we have excellent job security, you always hear the horror stories about how the US boss can fire you at any time, for whatever reason. A colleague of mine, who is married to an American and suddenly has all the knowledge about the USA, says this is not true at all. Anybody getting fired on the spot probably had it coming. (He also says that there is no poverty in the USA, and if there is, it’s that person’s own fault. I don’t think I have to explain how his wife votes.) But it doesn’t mean he’s wrong on this particular subject.

So, what is it? Are there any safeguards which can prevent an employer from just firing anybody, or can you be fired at any time and do you then have to take the company to court?

Side note: I have been fired on the spot once (January 3rd 1994, the first working day of that year), but believe me: I had seen that one coming for a looong time.

Side side note: Don’t worry. I’m just curious, not planning an invasion or anything.

2

as is frequently the case, “it depends”.
What I tell my clients is this:
If your employment is governed under a union contract, the employer must follow the terms included for termination.

If your employer has a “personnel handbook”, they are required to follow that.

But, in general, at least in the State of MI (as well as several others) it’s a “right to work” state which does mean the employer can fire at will without listing a reason.

IME, employers rarely fire without ANY cause, however they may just not wish to disclose the reason (such as, you’re being fired 'cause you were a pain in the a**). If asked in response to a claim for unemployment compensation, the employer will have to list a reason and may be responsible for paying unemployment compensation, depending on the reason.

3

IANAL.

It depends on a lot of things. One of the important things it depends on is in what state you work. Many states are “right to work” states. These states would be much more appropriately called “right to get your butt fired at any time states.” It pretty much means that absent a contract between employer and employee either can legally end the relationship at any time for any reason that does not constitute discrimination. In other words you cannot be fired because you aren’t white or don’t have a penis. But if it isn’t strictly prohibited then you have no recourse.

But, there are some federal protections when a large number of people are laid off from a company. I can’t remember the specifics of the Warn Act but the basic idea is that if a certain percentage of a company’s work force is going to be laid off that it is necessary to give a warning of a certain amount of time before they lose their jobs. It was awhile ago that I went through this sort of thing and I hope to never have to deal with it again.

4

Employment law varies from state to state, and several states are “at will” states where you can be let go anytime. If you have an employment contract, you can possibly seek some compensation through litigation. Otherwise you can file for unemployment benefits, and the company that let you go, if not for cause, will see it’s worker’s comp taxes increase.

Having never worked in a unionized environment, I’m unfamiliar with what courses are available to a union worker who is terminated without cause. I do know that many union contracts in industries that experience rounds of layoffs call for the union workers to retain their place in line if and when rehiring should come to pass.

Several states are “right to work” states, where you cannot be compelled to join a union to work, and non-compete clauses in employment contracts generally won’t hold up. Other states allow compulsory union membership, I believe.

5

It really depends on what you’re doing. If you’re in a unioney labor-vs-management type of job, your position is usually protected by the might of the union, so you good job protection. If you’re in something like a high-tech or other specialized field, your job is usually protected by your expertise in a field that few are skilled in. As well, its very rare that someone would be fired on a whim, and you of course have a huge variety of legal means at your disposal should this happen to you. All in all, I’d say that most people who get fired generally have it coming, and many who do have it coming don’t get fired, due to excessive “job security”.

6

You must mean “at will” state, as in I am an “at will employee” and can be fired without cause.

Michigan (home of labor movement) is certainly NOT a “right to work” state!

7

There is generally a grievence procedure available to the employee. Some companies CANNOT fire employees at all until they go through the Union representation. If the employee truly screwed up, the Union will usually NOT back the employee. This is all governed by the contract, and varies from Company to Company or Local to Local.

Michigan is one such state. The state allows Union contracts to dictate that employees pay Union dues if the employee is in a defined Union position. This is often referred to as a “Closed Shop.” Note that in Michigan it’s not legal to FORCE a person to join the Union, but since you have to pay the dues and are covered by the contract, there’s no good reason not to join. Your Union brothers-in-solidarity would probably scorn you if you didn’t.

Michigan doesn’t allow pure “Union Shops” where the employee can be forced to join the Union. However, the description of the “Closed Shop,” above pretty much makes them the same. Whomeever posts after me may argue that I’m wrong because they don’t understand this fine distinction in Michigan.

“Right to Work” states are states that allow “Open Shops.” You can choose freely to join the Union or not to, and you don’t have to pay Union Dues if you don’t. You may or may not be covered by the Union Contract. It’s illegal for the Union Contract to mandate that all labor be Union! Thus, Right to Work states are almost as good as moving to Mexico as far as payroll is concerned.

8

Balthisar,

You’ve got “union shop” and “closed shop” turned around. To quote from one website I found:

> The term “closed shop” is used to signify an
> establishment employing only members of a labor union.
> The union shop, a closely allied term, indicates a
> company where employees do not have to belong to a labor
> union when hired but are required to join within a
> specified period of time in order to keep their jobs. An
> open shop, strictly speaking, is one that does not
> restrict its employees to union members.

In other words, in a closed shop, you have to join the union before you get a job, so in effect the union controls who gets hired. Closed shops are illegal in the U.S. In a union shop, you have to join the union after you’re hired. In some cases what you happens is that you have to pay dues, although you don’t have to declare yourself a member of the union. I think it’s been decided that if you don’t declare yourself a member of the union, you can pay partial dues that cover the cost of union negociations, etc., but not the cost of political action by the union. Union shops are legal only in non-“Right to Work” states, where they can only be created by the majority vote of the employees. Only open shops are legal in “Right to Work” states. This means that you can choose whether to join the union.

9

Balthisar’s writing is not entirely clear. As my wife is a former union steward, allow me to ramble on on the matter.
[ul]
[li]Closed shops – in legal parlance, those in which you must be a member of the union before being employed there. Outlawed in the U.S. by the Taft-Hartley Act of 1947 (IIRC).[/li][li]Union shops – those in which a union contract specifies that eligible employees must join the union within a specified amount of time (usually ninety days). Often referred to as “closed shops” by unionists. Can be outlawed by legislation (“right to work” laws) by the states.[/li][li]Agency shops – Eligible employees are not required to belong to the union, but in which the employer is required to withhold from their pay and turn over to the union dues or their equivalent regardless of the employees’ membership status. In law, the employer need only pay to the union that portion of dues-equivalent used by the local (chapter) for negotiation of the contract and other forms of representation; in practice, employees are discouraged from filing legal actions on these grounds as a matter of federal labor policy.[/li][li]Open shops – Eligible employees are not required either to belong to the union, or to contribute money to it if they are not members. Regardless, all eligible employees must be treated as though they are union members WRT to any matter covered by the contract (pay rates, COLAs, grievances, etc.), including representation by the union where appropriate.[/li][/ul]

10

Skinnyguy, from a personal few point, being fired “out of the blue” can be bad. Many people I know of, say: ’ Good Lord, the best thing that ever happened to me, was that firing! I would have never started this business of mine, if I wasn’t fired then!"

I do not know about Netherlands, but in France, it’s very hard to fire anyone, because of the “labor laws”, union, etc. As a result, employers do not hire new people if they need to expand: they know that if an economic slowdown comes next year, they won’t be able to fire these new employees. So, there has been high enemployment and economic stagnation in France for many years. It’s easier to fire a person here, but the unemployment has been low and economically… you know.

11

Can somebody please list the states that are not “at will”? I would prefer to live there.

Seems as though most of the Deep South sucks as far as protecting workers. Guy I know from Louisiana says if anyone there is injured and dares to apply for workman’s comp, he’ll be out on his ass and never work in that town again.

12

I think that much of this thread has shifted away from the OP’s question (Can you be fired in the US without warning?) to a unionization question. The issue of whether you are in a Right to Work state has nothing to do with the OP’s issue. “Right to work” referes to those states where the legislature has enacted a statute which bans closed shops. In other words, you cannot be required to join a union in order to work at a particular job.

To answer the OP, most (if not all) US states follow the employment at will doctrine, with modifications. Employment at will means that both the employer and employee can terminate the employment relationship at any time, for any reason, or no reason. This doctrine is modified to limit the employer’s right to fire the employee in all states that I am aware of. In Illinois (where I practice - IAAL), there are several state statutes and common law doctrines which, when added to the nationally-applicable Federal statutes which come into play. Also, some municipalities have their own ordinances.

First, there are numerous anti-dicrimination laws. You can’t be fired because of your race, gender, or age, for example. This is not a complete list of protected classes. To give one other example, Chicago bars employment discrimination based upon sexual preference.

Second, if you have a contract (including a union collective bargaining agreement), you probably can’t be fired without cause. Most employees do not have contracts, however. For those that do, their rights are governed by what the contract says. Occasionally, courts have held that an employee manual is a contract, but unless your employer is a moron (or has a moron for an attorney), your employee manual will expressly state that it is NOT a contract, for precisely this reason.

Third, you can’t be fired for reasons that conflict with a significant public policy. Sometimes these restrictions have been legislated. In some other circumstances, courts have recognized the public policy. For example, you can’t be fired for reporting your employer for committing a crime (whistleblowing), serving on a jury, or filing a workers’ compensation claim. Interestingly, in Illinois, the one type of an employee who can be fired for whistleblowing is an attorney, because of the higher duty of loyalty that we owe clients. (This applies to situations where the employer is the client, or in other words, where the attorney is part of an in-house staff.)

Lastly, in practice, it is considered to be good form to give at least two weeks notice (in the case of the employee) or severance pay (in the case of the employer) even if there is no legal right to do so.

13

Arg. Add “to restrict the employer’s right to terminate the employee” to the end of the second-to-last sentence in the second paragraph of my reply.

14

Thanks everybody, for all the information. Especially this piece, which I never knew:

That’s the main difference with the Netherlands. Nearly everybody has a contract here, and those who haven’t are protected by standard civil law. Dutch civil law says something like “payment for work on a regular basis in an employer-employee relationship” = “contract” = “job security”.

The basic security is that there has to be a valid reason for dismissal. If there is such a reason a “dismissal permit” can be requested from the agency that will be paying the unemployment benefits. This procedure is generally fair, ie. not biased towards the employer or employee. And if the permit is granted then the employer still has to give notice. The period of giving notice depends on the contract and time the employee has been working for the company.
An employee has to give at least a month’s notice before being able to quit a job.

(Of course, mutual agreement can change this all. Sometimes a company wants to get rid of someone, and buys them out.)

The time I got fired was because my employer claimed I refused to work (which is a reason for direct dismissal), but I refused to work outside of the Netherlands which is a right any Dutch employee has. Took 'em to court. Won. They chapter elevened. Got my money from unemployment benefits & social security. (Never got my 245 hours of overtime though.)

15

Job Security In The US?

HA!

There are still States here called ‘Right to Work’ States, which, from the phrase, one would think it give you working rights.

What it boils down to is it means employers may fire you for almost any reason. One favorite trick is to wait until you get up to a high wage, then do one of the following: can you and hire in another person, younger, who will do the same job for less or, can you and hire in two part timers making even less money who will not only do the job for less but not be eligible for company benefits.

I’ve never retired from a company. I’ve resigned, been forced to resign, been fired and walked off of jobs in disgust. The reasons have ranged from personal disputes with superiors, unable to tolerate crooked business practices, overworked, under paid, tired of saving the company’s butt in jams and not even getting a ‘thanks’ for it, to making too much money when two could do the job in my place cheaper.

16

My understanding is that EVERY state in the U.S. views employment as being “at will” which means that an employer does not need to have a “reason” for firing an employee. I will try to check this when I am back in the office, but that won’t be until next week.

There are a few select situations (as described above by others) where the employer cannot simply fire an employee, but they are few and far between. Federal law also requires notice period for mass layoffs.

Larger employers tend to be somewhat sensitive to the issue, and often may be generous in their severance package, simply to avoid adverse publicity. However, there is nothing to compel decent or reasonable behaviour.

This is in stark contrast to most of Europe, where employees have contractual agreements (whether individual written contracts, industy-wide contracts, or simply labor law protections) that require lengthy notice periods and usually fairly high severance payments. The payments may differ depending on whether the termination is with cause or without cause. (In many countries, mere incompetence is not viewed as just cause for firing someone.)

17

I was once fired from a convenience store job, because the boss had a fight with his kid that morning. He walked in & fired everybody on the shift. Me too.

18

I’m a unionized civil service employee. Firing me takes a lot of effort. I’ve never known anyone who was fulltime who was fired involuntarily. Usually the employee is given a bunch of warnings and then put on leave and then eventually disappears from the payroll.

I worked with a guy who accidentally shot someone in the face. He didn’t get fired even though he was convicted of recklessly discharging a firearm and served a term in jail. He never came back to work however.

However, the parttime employees at my work have fewer protections and some, referred to as “casual” employees, can be let go on a whim.

The job security is counterbalanced by the fact that my job is very annoying.

19

On the amount of politics in the workplace. In my observations, workplaces with a lot of politcs tend to fire people for stupid reasons, mainly because they don’t like the person (i.e. he’s not a team player, but he works harder than anyone else).

This doesn’t prevent the fired employee from sueing the pants off of the employer, and collecting compensation from the government, though.

Even so, most middle income bracket jobs are pretty reasonable, and depending on the field, are better or worse.

It’s true that all an employer needs is an excuse (not even that really) to fire someone, but as mentioned above, most of those people have it coming.

As for the bit about poverty, and most american’s being responsible for living in it, I would say that it’s mostly true. Here’s why:

There are some 850,000 jobs in the Technical field alone, that America can’t fill. They are giving away H1B Visa’s like crazy. (no, I don’t expect a homeless bum to jump right into network design, but you get my point)

Where I live, there are so many open jobs, it is almost comical to think that people are homeless, McDonald’s starts off at a semi decent wage, and the cost of living is one of the lowest in the country.

The government provides funding and support to people who want to get out of their current situation. (and a lot more money to people who don’t)

IMHO The main cause of poverty is poor family life (like growing up with drug addicted or abusive parents), poor education, and lack of motivation (often caused by the previous two).

20

Hey Schieschkopf, good reply! Good to see you here on the board.