Joe Arpaio

[ElvisL1ves]

… and it serves you right for being brown and not speaking 'Merican so good.

[Kobal2]

@Starving_Artist

Here we go again: “draconian?” Next you’ll be claiming that depriving inmates of porn and weightlifting gear is “torture.” :rolleyes:

There is nothing remotely draconian about Arpaio’s jail. It is difficult. It is uncomfortable. It is humiliating and degrading and irritating. And it is all of those things for a purpose: “Don’t like it? Don’t come back!”

So there’s nothing remotely draconian about it, except for the facts that make it so. Gotcha.

You’ll pardon me I’m sure if I don’t quite believe your characterization of Norway’s prisons as assholes

I don’t characterize Norway’s prisons as assholes. I characterize the bloviating old farts who object to them (even among Norwegians) along the same principles you do as assholes.

given that this is merely the standard reaction of a liberal toward anyone who disagrees with him and not remotely based on reality or the fact that those people, like I am, are motivated simply by a desire to see crime punished and discouraged.

No, they’re not. If that were the case, they would find no fault with these prisons, given the fact that they demonstrably reduce crime and discourage it among their inmates.

You people love to keep bringing up Norway, but the fact of the matter is that given the culture we’ve fostered in this country the last fifty years there’s no way such a system would work even if it’s working as portrayed there (and I have my doubts).

Ah, yes, I was waiting for that. Yes, America is so very different and exceptional ! The masterstroke argument whenever Americans don’t have any other.
But you are right that it would be an uphill battle - and not just to get the political traction to get such prisons tried stateside, but also for them to work at all ; because even outside of the prison walls the American mindset is so very regressive when it comes to criminals. You show plenty of that spirit yourself in your post, calling them “dipshits” and asserting, in so many words, that they can’t change. Yes, the criminal is the abject Other, he’s not part of humanity, certainly not like the Honest Citizen, there’s simply no common ground between them, and so you can do whatever you like to the criminal beast and it’s justified, because they’re criminals you see…

Well, fuck that noise. *That *is, in no small part, why criminals go back to criminaling. How could they not, when the rest of society soundly reject them on such terms ? When “respectable citizens” applaud police brutality ?

And if Norway’s system is so wonderfully effective why is it apparently the only country to have adopted it?

BECAUSE OF **YOU **! You and people like you ! Because politicians elsewhere, and behaviourists, and police commissioners who look at their numbers with envy still don’t even want to get near that political hot potato. Because they know they’d immediately get lynched by moral crusaders and regressive imbeciles for being “soft on crime”, which apparently is a cardinal fucking sin.
Like you, they just couldn’t get it through their thick heads that these methods work better. Just like talking with one’s child, reasoning with him and being patient work better at molding not-fucked-up children than bringing out the belt.

But that’s all you imbeciles know, and whatever it is you know is the only thing there is to know. Lackwits.

Still, apart from murder I have no problem with the idea of rehabilitating convicts so they can make it after they’re released. So I’ll tell ya what: you go ahead and build your hotel prison and let’s send some of our badass criminals from L.A. and Detroit and the Mexican border area there and let them spend their days communing with nature and strolling the grounds and eating in the cafeteria and reading whatever else goes on there in Norway. And then watch as they go back home and laughingly tell all their buds about the silly way these dipshits think they’ll be rehabilitated and how cozy and comfortable it was and how if they ever get busted themselves that’s the place to go and how to scam the system to make the officials there think they’ve made progress with you…and then they’ll go right back to doing the same shit with the same people and in the same environment they were doing it in in the first place.

Point in case.

This is not fucking Norway. Get that through your head!

More exceptionalism. Get the fuck over yourself. Your criminals are not 'arder. Your social problems are not different. The only difference between Norway and America is that McDonalds probably has a McRollmops on the Norwegian menu.

:eek: Only in liberal land would the fact that it worked better still make it worth debate. Of course it would be worth it if it worked better. What kind of nonsense is that?

Well, forgive me for being all soft and shit, but yes, if for example a strictly more efficient prison system involved castration with bricks or daily bone breakings, I would question whether or not it’s worth it, and whether a society applying such system would be worth preserving. Nazi Germany might have been a paragon of street safety, but… yes.

Well, here on this website and forum dedicated to fighting one’s ignorance and prejudices and challenging one’s assumption, we have two anecdotal examples that Arpaio’s methods are indeed effective.

And in-depth, actually studied statistical evidence that they’re, on the whole, not. Anecdotes are worthless in determining the objective truth, you should know that already.

And we have a few cites from your side claiming abuses that are not out of the ordinary for any penal institution and which do not begin to show that Arpaio himself or his unique policies are responsible for them. And we have you clinging to insistence that a prison system in a foreign country with a language and government and background and culture completely different from ours would work wonderfully here if only it were instituted and that the fact it’s seemingly working so well over there proves it.

Oh, so the *language *is important now ? What, the Crips wouldn’t gangbang if only they spoke Scandiwegian ? Are you off your meds again ?

But enough of all that. I think the fact that Arpaio remains in office and that no court has found his jail and policies to be in violation of constitutional protections

…except people have brought forward just such findings…

is proof enough that your accusations are simply hot air based on nothing but your political inclination toward being soft on criminals.

And there it is. Soft on criminals. Death sentence of the debate. Yes, yes, you sussed me out you crafty devil you, my sinister agenda has been revealed - what I *really *relish is the prospect of getting mugged more, and providing the muggers with free blowjobs. That is precisely what I, and everyone like me who oppose regressive prisons, are about. Why, we’re probably criminals ourselves !

Idiot.

[gamerunknown]

@Starving_Artist

As for your claims taking credit for the advances which admittedly have been made but which could have been made otherwise without fucking the country up at the same time (ala women’s sufferage, civil rights legislation from the turn of the 20th century to the sixties, the end of prohibition, etc.), do you really think they could have been made had not the majority of the nation’s conservative population not been in agreement with them in the first place?

In much the same way as the left has been at the forefront of gun ownership.

Suffrage and conservatives. Suffrage and Marxism. Feminsm and market liberalism. Feminism and Marxism. “Racial miscegeny” and conservatism (more recent polls on racial miscegeny). Civil rights union leader. Homosexual pacifist ex-Communist Party civil rights leader. MLK uses the term “Brother Marx”. Now I’d like to see your cites showing self described conservatives saying they support the civil rights movement. FTR, “oh, I’m totally fine with the Voting Rights Act, it’s just that the burdens on business owners are unconstitutional” and “we can end racism by doing away with the minimum wage” won’t cut it.

@Starving_Artist

Well, I’m sorry, but when I hear someone has been systematically violating prisoners’ constitutional rights I have other things in mind than violating the specific degree over which certain prisoners with certain health conditions requiring certain medications can be held, especially since that finding seems to have been made on the spot and not to have been constitutionally mandated beforehand. Nor do I think about them being served moldy bread.

The US has signed and ratified the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, meaning prisoners have a right to “be treated with humanity and with respect for the inherent dignity of the human person.”. The right to adequate food, clothing and accommodation is referred to in this case.

Still, I believe it’s the case that in each instance Arpaio has altered his policies to comply with court rulings in those matters, and it can hardly be claimed that he intentionally, knowingly, willingly and sadistically violates prisoners’ constitutional rights when those rights have only been established by judicial determination as a result of lawsuits that had been brought on the inmates’ behalf.

Did Americans have a constitutional right to bear arms before Heller?

[Euphonious_Polemic]

You see, you can prove that Arpaio has done nothing wrong. He’s an old guy right? He does not have the mobility of a young person. Probably has a lot of trouble bending his old arthritic knees.

You could do this experiment yourself. Get a paper towel tube and some lube. See if you can bend over and stick your dick in the paper towel tube. See if you can make rhythmic slapping sounds.

See - you can’t do it. This proves that conditions in Arpaio’s jail cells are perfectly adequate.

[April_R]

@Starving_Artist

Besides, what do you care? You’ve scarcely been seen 'round these parts since you started the thread.

I’ve been reading it, and y’all are entertaining enough without me chiming in “Yea, what he said, boo what he said.” It’s been hilarious, good thing I have popcorn.

[Beastly_Rotter]

Arapaio’s antics are wrong because as a society we hold out the ideal that we can aspire to be better, that if we do fall short, we can reform and improve. To sanction his petty degradations out of spite cheapens us to no more than vindictive children. We need to punish sometimes, but if we do it without dignity, if we take glee in offering these small malices, we rob ourselves of what we aspire to be as people, and we set the worst example for those we should hope to redeem.

[April_R]

@Beastly_Rotter

Arapaio’s antics are wrong because as a society we hold out the ideal that we can aspire to be better, that if we do fall short, we can reform and improve. To sanction his petty degradations out of spite cheapens us to no more than vindictive children. We need to punish sometimes, but if we do it without dignity, if we take glee in offering these small malices, we rob ourselves of what we aspire to be as people, and we set the worst example for those we should hope to redeem.

That was beautiful

[ElvisL1ves]

Hey, Starkers, do you know of any prison *anywhere *that people would like to get back into after they’re out? Any at all? I’d like to know, in case, well, you know, things go sour and I need a place to go crash for awhile …

What’s that? You don’t? AFAYK, they’re all pretty unpleasant? Okay, then can you point me to any where people don’t get released in a humiliated, angry, resentful state of mind, ready to lash out at somebody or something while in the process of trying to recover their sense of self? Any with a proven low recidivism rate? By your logic, Maricopa County must be the best at that, but do the facts bear that out? What’s that - they don’t? Gee, I wonder why …l

Or, IOW, as others have stated as well: Idiot.

[Euphonious_Polemic]

@ElvisL1ves

By your logic, Maricopa County must be the best at that, but do the facts bear that out? What’s that - they don’t? Gee, I wonder why …l

Those facts are not right because Liberal Hypocrisy.

[Larry_Borgia]

Why do people insist on engaging with Starving Artist. He isn’t going to listen to you, hardly anyone here takes him seriously, and he’s a cretin. I get poking at him, but why the hell would you post cited multi paragraph responses to him? It seems like a lot of work for very little reward. Not that it isn’t entertaining to watch, but please don’t break your backs for my amusement.

[Starving_Artist]

Oh, they take me seriously alright. I’ve never been able to suss out whether they’re terrified someone will be persuaded by my arguments or whether they’re simply bound and determined to try to get me to cry uncle (I’m going with door number one myself), but posters here expend tons of verbiage and anger trying to prove me wrong.

It rarely works of course because I’m rarely wrong in these matters, but that doesn’t give them a moment’s pause. They charge right ahead with their cites that don’t prove what they claim, and their insistence that there opinions are fact, and that I’m a dolt of some stripe for continuing my arguments despite the [del]facts[/del] opinions they’ve posted which prove I’m wrong. And then of course once real life intrudes and I have to leave for a while they all gather around and hurl insults at my expense and slap each other on the back and pretend they won.

Then once I have time and re-enter the thread to shoot them down once more it all starts up again. Rinse and repeat until finally I grow tired enough to move on to something else. Then it starts up again and follows the same pattern.

Frankly, I’ve sometimes felt the board owes me a debt of gratitude for the boost to its posting activity that my participation generates.

[Kobal2]

OK, I’ll give you that much: that was a trolling masterpiece. Good show. Asshole.

[Robot_Arm]

@Starving_Artist

Oh, they take me seriously alright. I’ve never been able to suss out whether they’re terrified someone will be persuaded by my arguments or whether they’re simply bound and determined to try to get me to cry uncle…

No, I’m just worried that if I let someone else hit you with a stick that he’ll get all the candy first.

[Morgenstern]

@Starving_Artist

. . .

Frankly, I’ve sometimes felt the board owes me a debt of gratitude for the boost to its posting activity that my participation generates.

What you don’t see is how many people simply shake their head and move on thinking they just don’t have the time it would take to educate you.

True story bro.

[elucidator]

Starkers is the conservative gadfly who exposes the folly and hypocrisy of the left. And who can blame him, as his ideas and proposals triumph over and over again! The recent crushing near-defeat of Obama is just another in a long string of such victories! And wasn’t Jerry Sandusky acquitted on three of the forty-eight charges against him! Not Guilty! On three charges! Three! Clearly, this is a total vindication! Who could blame him for crowing over such a massive triumph!

Starkers has seen the future, and it looks just like the past, only better, more like the past than the past!

[The_Dord]

@Robot_Arm

No, it’s the exact opposite. In that thread, Jerry Sandusky was a saint who deserved every consideration of due process, and the fact that he was acquitted on a particular charge meant that everybody who said bad things about him was wrong.

In this thread, it doesn’t matter if you died in Arpaio’s jail before even coming to trial, because, hey, them’s the breaks.
If only Sandusky had been held in a tent in Arizona before his trial, then we’d all be happy.

I’m not even talking about Sandusky himself, I’m talking about the fervent “Haha I got you by the balls and I’m replying for the ‘lulz’ aspect.”

[The_Tooth]

@Starving_Artist

Oh, they take me seriously alright. I’ve never been able to suss out whether they’re terrified someone will be persuaded by my arguments or whether they’re simply bound and determined to try to get me to cry uncle (I’m going with door number one myself)

I think of you as ‘practice’. As for door number one, feel free to let it hit you in the back of the head on the way out. It could only help.

[YogSothoth]

@Starving_Artist

Oh, I don’t know. The various lawsuits brought so far haven’t had much success in making that argument. Somehow I think the framers of the Constitution had more in mind than pink underwear and Frank Sinatra music when they prohibited cruel and unusual punishment. (And btw, note the prohibition is against cruel and unusual punishment. I don’t believe unusual alone cuts it.)

Music and underwear are the least of my concerns. The heat and inhuman conditions threaten basic human decency standards.

@Starving_Artist

Prisoners in other hot climes live in the similar heat and in enclosed cells. At least Arpaio’s guys have ventilation and open air.

We are talking about Arizona in the heat, not other climates and prisons. Ventilation and open air do little when its 120 and all you have is a thin sheet of fabric shielding you from the elements.

@Starving_Artist

So you’ve chosen the lame route too, eh? Tell ya what chum, how’s about you agree to pay me ten bucks for every non-Hispanic inmate to have been housed in Sheriff Joe’s tent city? Betcha wouldn’t even begin to consider it.

Until you can seriously acknowledge that Hispanics in Arizona, especially recently after the “Show me your papers” bill are not unfairly targeted, it is easy for the rest of us to dismiss your stupid argument. Its no secret Arizona, as a border state, has issues with immigration and its no secret Arpaio has made a lot of noise trying to enforce these discriminatory laws. The extreme nature of some parts of Arizona reflects the stupidity and xenophobia people like you enjoy, because quite simply you’re white and don’t have to worry about it.

@Odesio

Do you have some citation to prove that? Provided the inmate has no health problems exacerbated by heat all he or she needs is plenty of water and shade. If they don’t have access to enough water, shade, etc., etc. then I will agree with you. And, believe me, I’m no fan of Arpaio as I don’t think he’s a good guy. I just don’t think the concept of a tent city in Arizona is automatically a bad thing.

You need a citation to show that 120 degrees with little protection can be dangerous? Every city that can even come close to that degree sound local warnings when temperatures even approach 3 digits. And even if its less dangerous to grown men, which I’m assuming most of these prisoners are, than children or elderly, there’s still the matter that such conditions are nowhere close to reasonable accommodations. Just because you can survive something doesn’t mean its not inhuman to be put through it

[drewtwo99]

Joe Arpaio is a good decent man.

Now, I don’t want to talk about this anymore so I’m leaving this thread and going for a stroll down the block, a swim in the lake, a bike ride through the park, and roll in the hay with my trusty paper towel tube.

[Odesio]

@YogSosoth

You need a citation to show that 120 degrees with little protection can be dangerous? Every city that can even come close to that degree sound local warnings when temperatures even approach 3 digits.

No, I don’t need a cite to show it can be dangerous. I need a cite to show me it’s dangerous when you have plenty of shade and water, have no health problems exacerbated by the heat and are not engaged in a physically exerting activity.

Just because you can survive something doesn’t mean its not inhuman to be put through it

Agreed. I just don’t see staying in a tent in hot weather to be inhumane.