John Fetterman really needs to resign

Politics & Elections
183

Other posters have in essence said what I would have said before I got back here (thanks!), but a few points.

If you read the tweet in isolation, would you think that a Democrat or a MAGA had written that? Heck, even with the additional tweet you quoted about “hard-working” migrants, I would still think the person was a MAGA. And I don’t think that the vast majority of Democratic politicians have any tweets that would, in isolation, induce such suspicians of MAGAhood. It’s just that bad.

Sure. But this tweet fits perfectly with that kind of smear. That’s why it sounds MAGA. It’s like all the “Support the Troops” shit from the early 2000s, only now ICE is the troops. In fact, it’s the exact spiritual successor to that type of framing:

“Wait, they’re our troops–don’t you support them? Oh, you have issues with Dubya’s wars? Or is it that you really don’t support the troops?”

Becomes:

“Why do you want to abolish ICE? Don’t they have essential function? You don’t want them to round up the murderers and rapists? What, you don’t want them to wear masks and jostle Abeulita as they toss her into the van? Or is it that you really just want open borders like the commie Dems?”

It’s so obvious, I’m surprised you’re not seeing it if you’re a Democrat yourself.

They are participating in their own abuse and the abuse and degradation of other human beings. Hey, my ex-wife is Japanese and I’m a white American, and we’ve both been treated to arrogant, nazi-flavored behavior on the part of border control a long time ago, and our experiences were nothing compared to what others are suffering under ICE right now. This is a longstanding problem in this function of our government (regardless of the agency name at the time).

Any Democrat would agree with what you wrote, but again, framing. Fetterman’s tweet is set up as a distortion of our side’s perspective and a smear.

184

It depends. Entering the country illegally is a crime.

Here is the law:

And, if you were removed (deported) and return…

But for many people being in the US undocumented it is not a “crime”, if they entered legally. For example, someone is here with an expired visa, they aren’t breaking the law. The ACLU has a good writeup on it (as an online PDF):

The act of being present in the United States in violation of the immigration laws is not,
standing alone, a crime. While federal immigration law does criminalize some actions that
may be related to undocumented presence in the United States, undocumented presence
alone is not a violation of federal criminal law. Thus, many believe that the term “illegal
alien,” which may suggest a criminal violation, is inaccurate or misleading.

Entering the United States without being inspected and admitted, i.e., illegal entry, is a
misdemeanor or can be a felony, depending on the circumstances. But many
undocumented immigrants do not enter the United States illegally. They enter legally but
overstay, work without authorization, drop out of school or violate the conditions of their visas
in some other way. Current estimates are that approximately 45% of undocumented
immigrants did not enter illegally.

185

@JRDelirious Just to be clear, I wasn’t correcting you, I was supporting what you were saying with cites.

I realize after the fact that the way I wrote my post could be construed otherwise.

186

It doesn’t seem like a particularly partisan tweet either way. I wouldn’t associate it with MAGA, since it’s not gleeful about the deportations and is pretty lukewarm towards ICE as a concept.

Wanting amnesty for immigrants who haven’t committed crimes is a MAGA position? That’s a very silly claim to make.

That tweet is the exact opposite of that kind of smear. It’s the exact message I’d want Democrats to push. Illegal immigrants who haven’t committed any other crime should not be deported. What is wrong with that message?

What I see is insistence that everyone precisely echo the Defund the Police ICE message and insistence that they’re MAGA if they refuse. Sorry, but that message sucks.

Again, what did Fetterman say that’s a distortion of our side? Is our side not for deporting only people convicted of crimes above and beyond illegally entering the country?

187

The other tweet. The one saying ICE shouldn’t be abolished. It’s implying that people are asking for ICE to be abolished. That’s absolutely a distortion of the Democratic position.

188

This kind of hair splitting is fine for the courtroom where precision is needed for legal matters, but Fetterman is in the court of public opinion. There’s no judge who will make a verdict. The people get to make the verdict. Lots of Democrats object to the things he said. Even if it’s technically correct when viewed from a favorable perspective, that doesn’t really matter. What matters is what the voters think. If the voters don’t like Fetterman’s message or the way he’s phrasing things, he won’t get their votes. His behavior and messages are actively causing people to reject him. That kind of pattern means it’s not very likely he’ll get re-elected. The voters will instead select someone who has a message that’s more in line with how they feel. Rather than trying to improve his image, it seems like Fetterman is taking every opportunity to keep shooting himself in the foot. It’s hard to find any good reason that he should be re-elected other than he’s currently holding the position.

189

It’s neither gleeful nor not gleeful about the deportations; it doesn’t mention them at all (this is a tweet, not a position statement; therefore, the absence of things in it doesn’t prove anything). It’s not “lukewarm” about ICE as a concept; it’s not addressing ICE as a concept at all. It is defending ICE’s existence and saying that being against such existence (which is a distortion of the Democratic position and plays into the “open borders” smear) is not just “inappropriate” but also “outrageous.” This is total MAGA. Your defense here is a big stretch.

Your point is taken. I would be very confused as to the person’s political affiliation had I seen these two tweets appear either together or in quick succession.

Yes, that was a different tweet, the one you quoted. Had he said only that, we wouldn’t be having this discussion on this particular point.

I feel that you are purposely avoiding the Big Picture in your defense here. The problem is not that Fetterman is 100% MAGA in all his statements. The problem is that he’s erratic and inconsistent and appears often to be flirting with MAGAhood while at the same time seeming oblivious to the distressing effect all of this has on his supposed political allies, us Democrats. Saying, in effect, Whatcha talkin’ 'bout, this other tweet shows he’s on the right side of things! misses a major point of this entire thread.

There will always be one or two Democratic politicians that say that kind of thing, but in this case, I actually haven’t heard it, and I have absolutely not heard that as a macro message coming from our side. Border control? Yes. ICE with its current culture and practices further distorted and corrupted by Trump and his fascist fuckheads? Absolutely fucking not.

Dealt with already by other posters. But c’mon, man! This is cheap casuistry unbecoming of a Democrat, in my humble opinion.

190

Fetterman is a Democrat. He is specifying his own position, which is also the Democratic party’s position.

are you day Ng that there aren’t tons of people calling for ICE to be abolished? That would be news to all the people at the protests I’ve been seeing with "Abolish ICE signs. I disagree, and I think it’s good that at least some Democrats are willing to say so, because I don’t want anyone to become confused about what the Democratic party’s position is. They might come to believe that our position is AOC’s position - that ICE is a “rogue agency” that “should not exist”.

191

You keep saying this. Are you making the claim that there aren’t Democrats, both supporters and politicians, who say we need to abolish ICE?

Assuming that you admit that there are people with this position, and seeing as you keep saying that it’s a MAGA smear to imply that democrats do support that position, what is wrong with a Democrat stating that this is not his position?

192

“What’s wrong with saying ‘All Lives Matter?’”

193

Defending ICE without explicitly calling out their lawless and fascist behavior is giving aid and comfort to MAGA, either out of ignorance or malice.

194

What’s wrong with it is that what you’re actually saying is “Fuck the BLM movement”, just slightly more politely.

Likewise, what Fetterman is saying is that he’s opposed to the “Abolish ICE” movement.

The difference is that Democrats supported BLM, so it would be weird for a Democrat to take a stand against BLM. The Democrats (aside from a few exceptions like AOC) do not support the Abolish ICE movement, so it’s not weird at all for a Democrat to oppose abolishing ICE.

195

Abolishing ICE is not the same as abolishing border control. Yeah, I think the culture of ICE and Homeland Security in general is so bad that the entire structure needs a complete overall. I have not seen any Democratic pols call for the abolishment of ICE, however. You provided the AOC quote; do you have any others?

And I don’t have a big problem with the AOC quote either. It is a rogue agency, and Homeland Security under Noem is a rogue department. I would say “fully reconstituted” instead of “abolished,” but that’s a semantic quibble. Protesters with signs that say “Abolish ICE” don’t bother me either. It’s a sign, so it has to be simple.

“Open borders” is the smear, and anything Democrats say or do is distorted by the opposition to support the smear. Democrats shouldn’t help them.

What iiandyiiii just said. Also, your argument is sophistry. Fetterman was, in essence, straw-manning the position in order to appeal to the right–which has been doing again and again lately. Don’t you get that?!

196

Thank you!

But it is dumb and shitty for him to imply that our side needs a dressing down about it. Because that’s what he was doing.

197

What the heck are you talking about? Did we read the same tweet? Where does he say that Democrats want open borders? Why would he, a Democrat, say that?

What he said is that calls for abolishing ICE are inappropriate. It sounds like you even agree that calling for the abolition of ICE is bad, you just don’t want him to say so for some reason.

??? I have no idea how to read Fetterman’s tweet with this conclusion.

I’ve literally never taken a position that disagrees with that statement, so I’m not sure why you’re thanking me as if I granted some point.

He posted on Twitter, and Twitter is certainly full of idiots ostensibly on our side who are going around ranting about how ICE needs to be abolished. I’m not going to pretend that it’s not happening, or that it’s inappropriate to call it out when it is.

Do you think he was speaking to Democratic lawmakers in that tweet?

Unfortunately, that’s the kind of discourse there currently is on our side. When prominent figures on our side refuse to call it out, to people not on our side it looks like we are running cover for those people because we secretly agree with them, but we’re hiding our power level. You know - exactly what we say about Republicans who aren’t openly racist but who pander to racist voters and refuse to call out racism.

198

Well, that’s the question, isn’t it? Is he just saying that, or, in the same way “All Lives Matter” is a dog-whistle for “Fuck your protests over police brutality,” is Fetterman actually saying “Fuck your protests over ICE brutality?”

I mean, has he come out with any statements critical of what’s ICE doing right now? I’m only casually following the controversy around this guy, and of course, trying to Google anything about his past statements on ICE mostly brings up hits related to his most recent statement. Has he made any public comments criticizing the behavior of ICE since Trump’s re-election?

'Cause if he’s been ignoring the whole, “Masked, unidentified government agents snatching people off the streets without a warrant,” while taking time out of his day to blast the small minority of Dems calling for the whole-scale abolishment of ICE, it does seem a lot like the same selective blindness behind the “All Lives Matter” slogan.

199

OK, this is getting frustrating. This whole thread is about Fetterman saying and doing dumb fucking shit. That’s the context. You seem to want to ignore the context, an important part of which is his saying MAGA-adjacent shit that’s bad enough to make us worry whether he is going to switch sides completely. Because of this context, Fetterman’s comments are viewed through a different lens at this point. If you choose to ignore this context, you are arguing on a disingenuous basis, in my opinion.

The other thing that’s important is team play. Through his words, Fetterman often seems not to be playing on the Democratic team. The tweet in question is an excellent example of this.

Context. Indeed, why did he send the tweet out at all? What’s the point? He knows that MAGA loves what ICE is doing, so at whom is he aiming the tweet? How does this contribute to team play?

Again, context and team play. He could just as easily have said, “There are clearly some problems with what ICE is doing it and how it is doing it. I must politely push back, however, on those who are calling for the complete abolishment of the agency.”

But Fetterman is a dumb ape who has no use for nuance or team play of this type. That’s the problem!

200

Well said, thank you.

201

I tried explicitly searching for Fetterman criticizing ICE.

I can only find things like this.

He is fully supporting it. FULLY SUPPORTING IT. There is no defense for this unless you too are supporting what ICE is doing.

I’m looking at you @Babale. I hope that’s not what you’re doing here. I don’t think you support what ICE is doing based on your other comments.

ETA: Non-paywalled version:

202

For anyone who doubts that Fetterman knows that what he is saying is in support of the right wing agenda, I’ll quote part of that article that should end such doubts.

During a meeting at the White House with African leaders, a reporter asked Trump to respond to a comment from Fetterman saying it was “inappropriate and outrageous” to abolish ICE or treat officers “as criminals.”

“The new John Fetterman is exactly what you said,” Trump replied. “He’s right. He’s right. And we have to protect our police officers, and we will, and we have been.”

Fetterman told the Daily Mail that his family probably appreciated the president’s comments.

“They’re big Fox News viewers,” he said. “My whole family is Republican.”

He knows. He’s making it explicit that he knows. He knows that he’s saying things that further the Republican agenda and defends what ICE is doing. He’s happy to do it.