How long did it take your dogs to go from Old Dog to puppy? Mine’s been on it just about a month, and though she seems a lot better, she’s not quite “puppy” yet.
I used to “pill” my dogs (stuff pill down throat, hold muzzle up and stroke throat until swallowing occurs.). Whenever they heard the lid being unscrewed they would run and hide under the deck where I couldn’t grab them.
Now I wrap my pills in a bit of butter or soft cheese. No issues ever again.
My cat is not a dog (duh) but we give him Cosequin which comes in powder-filled capsules. We open the capsule, mix it with a small amount of his favorite canned cat food and he gobbles it up. He doesn’t seem to taste it at all.
I hate to be the one who sets himself up for a pile-on, but glucosamine/chondroitin is 100% woo.
A couple of years ago, I was an associate at a law firm pursuing class actions against glucosamine manufacturers. The manufacturers were falling over themselves to settle as quickly and quietly as possible. Glucosamine is insanely cheap to manufacture (byproduct of shrimp processing) and the manufacturers’ profits depend on the actual science being obscure, and on maintaining their classification as a “supplement.”
In the interest of fighting ignorance, here’s the science: some crappy small studies funded by the industry show slight benefits. Every systematic review, and every well-controlled major study shows zero evidence of efficacy.
The interesting thing about glucosamine from a legal standpoint is the affliction it’s purported to treat. You can’t usually sue a snake oil seller who claims vague undifferentiated claims like “boosts immune health” or “increases vitality.” You are essentially allowed to make whatever health-related claim you want as long as you don’t say that your product will treat a disease, which would make your product a “drug” for legal purposes, and thus you can be regulated by the FDA. However, in the case of glucosamine, they’re saying that it “improves joint health” and the legal definition of arthritis is pretty close to “bad joint health.” Arthritis is, as far as I know, unique here: no other FDA-recognized disease has such a vague definition.
So some judges will look at your claims to “increase joint health” and then look at the definition of arthritis (“decreased joint health”) and say, “you’re claiming to treat arthritis here.” And if you’re claiming that, then you’d better have FDA clearance. Which would require evidence. Which the manufacturers don’t have. Because glucosamine doesn’t actually do anything.
I would bet that within three years, you won’t be able to buy it for human consumption any more. Same for pets within ten years.
Well, sure it shows zero efficacy. In humans. I stopped recommending it to my patients over a decade ago.
Such thorough studies seem to be lacking for cats and dogs.
I guess it’s possible that it works in non-human animals. I’ve never seen a convincing study demonstrating this, and I never heard a feasible mechanism of action from any manufacturer or researcher. Do you know any feasible mechanism of action?
As it’s been explained to me, the chemical, glucosamine, is a basic building block of the proteins that make up cartilage. So the reasoning is that adding more should augment the animal’s cartilage. But this is like saying “we want a wooden bridge over this river, so let’s dump a bunch of two-by-fours in it.”
So you are saying that the placebo effect works on animals as well, or that the effect extends to hallucinations in pet owners?
P.S. A large animal vet will sell Cosequin (Glucosamine/Chondroitin, same as the OP’s formulation) in large tubs of powder, which may help with the pill resistance and also be a lot cheaper per equivalent dose. Cosequin was originally formulated for use in horses.
Probably a large part of it too: the placebo effect extends to observers. That’s why good studies are double blind.
If the dogs are improving, who cares if it’s the “placebo effect”?
Glucosamine is extremely inexpensive and easy to administer. No one is claiming a study said it caused harm, so it’s worth trying. A study is only as good as its design and execution. A lot of them really are garbage if you actually read them.
Arthritis pain in humans tends to wax and wane, which is why effects of supplements and treatments can be misleading. If you start taking something near the peak of an exacerbation of pain and stiffness, the improvement that’s part of the natural history of the disease can fool you into thinking that the supplement was responsible.* The same situation could well apply to dogs who get a supplement - the owner notices apparent improvement and attributes it to the supplement, instead of the temporary improvement that’s part of the natural disease course.
I had an aging chocolate Lab who started developing arthritic pain and stiffness. The vet suggested trying Cosequin (which is not cheap). Months of giving her the Cosequin chews produced no improvement. What eventually helped tremendously was starting her on a well-tolerated veterinary NSAID (the original drug caused G.I. problems).
I don’t see any harm in trying a glucosamine/chondroitin product recommended by the vet for your dog. I just wouldn’t expect miracles. The science is shaky at best.
*There’s an excellent explanation of this in R. Barker Bausell’s “Snake Oil Science”.
Well, I did start this thread asking if it was woo or not. But hell, this is a dog who has been limpy in the morning for at least a year, limpy enough that I carry her down the stairs several times a day. Within a few hours after her Rimadyl, she’ll go down the stairs on her own occasionally.
She’s still not going downstairs on her own all the time, but it sure as hell seems to me she’s going down at least 30% more than she did before. I’m pretty much only carrying her down once a day now, right away in the morning. Yes, this could be the placebo effect; maybe I’m just not carrying her down because I mistakenly think she looks better. Still, she seems to be walking without a limp a whole lot more than she used to.
She’s only been on it for 4 weeks, and they told me it takes 6 weeks to really start seeing results. We’ll see where she is in another couple weeks. I fully expected this stuff to be woo, but I can’t totally discount that both Mr. Athena and I are seeing an improvement.
Hell, even if it is placebo, and all it does is make us feel better about her limping around, that works for me.
Timely thread as my Pit Bull/Shar Pei mix was just yesterday diagnosed with a ruptured ACL. Surgery is in the future. Most likely TPLO. In the meantime, my vet has suggested Cosequin to keep his joints healthy, reduce the strain he’s putting on them. I used to work at a dressage training stables and I remember it from the horses. Hopefully I can find a cheaper supplier than retail.
Keep in mind that tick borne diseases like Lyme Disease are prevalent in dogs and often mimic arthritis symptoms. Maybe antibiotics will do the trick instead.
Rimadyl is not a joint supplement like glucosamine, it’s an anti-inflammatory and, so my vet told me, an analgesic in an easy to eat form. Basically like an ibuprofen would be for you or me, except that it’s surprising expensive. So yes, it does help a dog in a short amount of time.
Yeah, I know all that - she’s on a dosage that should help her throughout the day, I give her some in the morning and in the evening. It also can potentially be hard on her liver and kidneys if she’s on it continually. Seeing as she can barely walk without some kind of therapy, I’m trying the joint supplement in the hopes that I can reduce or maybe even eliminate the Rimadyl.