Jon Stewart and Charlton Heston on Ground Zero Mosque

[cosmosdan]

@John_Mace

@MaxTheVool

(1) Anyone disagree with Jon and Charlton’s point?

I’m not going to watch a video, especially an edited one of someone who’s been dead for years. Summarize it if you want us to discuss it, and be sure to clarify if this is at all related to the clips from M. Moore’s film-- those clips were taken out of context.

(2) Why is it that the most meaningful and moving and honest discussion of so many issues today comes from a comedian?

Define “so many”. But this is nothing new. Comedians have been making fun of the political process, and making good points along the way, ever since Og ran for mayor of The Cave.

But seems to me the real question is… are these two instances comparable in the first place? I say no. Like it or not, the terror attacks of 9/11/01 are unique in the American psyche. Maybe that will change over time, but give it at least a few generations for that to be the case. Compare it to Pearl Harbor if you must compare it to something, but school shootings are, sadly, something that happens with regularity in this country. Planes flying into the World Trade Centers… not very often.

Yeah, and thank god we reacted rationally to Pearl Harbor and put Japanese Americans in internment camps. No reason to apologize for that …oh wait!

The point isn’t that the two situations are exactly analogous, but that the feelings are analogous. Irrational anger directed at a group that is not connected to the horrible event.

[Kobal2]

@Marley23

@cosmosdan

The Manhattan community center was no big deal until the fear and hate mongers started misrepresenting it as the ground zero mosque. It’s neither. Jon makes a very relevant demonstration of the irresponsible game of guilt by remote association Fox has been playing.

The most effective part is that he showed a Fox host (Van Susternen? I have no idea) guest hosting on Bill O’Reilly’s show and saying “I really like what you’re doing, Ms. Khan, and we appreciate it.” She’s speaking to Daisy Khan, the wife of Imam Rauf. The clip is from December, which was around the time the New York Times reported on the Cordoba Initiative but before everybody lost their minds.

Yeah, that’s what gets me the most too. Six months ago, it was a great idea. Today it’s devil spawn. What changed in between ? Slow news week ?
It’s like what JS denounced in the Mosque-rade video : Fox & al. rapid-fire bashing the imam for saying the exact same things Glenn Beck had said three months ago.

In that regards, Stewart isn’t a crack journalist - he just has a fucking memory longer than that of a goldfish. Which, apparently, Fox figures their audience have. And since it works so well for them (as evidenced by the recent threads about the mosque, many reiterating Fox bullet points), I guess they do at that.
Which is perhaps why Stewart garners such respect : he, apparently alone in American news, doesn’t take his viewers for complete chumps. People seem to like that, I dunno.

[Bosstone]

@Kobal2

Yeah, that’s what gets me the most too. Six months ago, it was a great idea. Today it’s devil spawn. What changed in between ? Slow news week ?

All hail the political narrative.

[elucidator]

@El_Kabong

…Among the many things I don’t quite get in this manufactured controversy is the whole ‘spit in the faces of the WTC dead’ bit that this proposed center is supposed to represent. Were the people who worked in the WTC known to dislike the idea of a mosque in lower Manhattan? Does anyone actuallly think that the 9/11 attacks were intended to promote the construction of more mosques in Manhattan, or anywhere else in the US, for that matter?

If you stop and reflect upon which political party most recently marched in lockstep to deny benefits to 9/11 first responders and so forth, and who might therefore be eager to change the subject and let gush the tears crocodilian…

Might get a little clearer.

[Superfluous_Parentheses]

@Kobal2

@Marley23

The most effective part is that he showed a Fox host (Van Susternen? I have no idea) guest hosting on Bill O’Reilly’s show and saying “I really like what you’re doing, Ms. Khan, and we appreciate it.” She’s speaking to Daisy Khan, the wife of Imam Rauf. The clip is from December, which was around the time the New York Times reported on the Cordoba Initiative but before everybody lost their minds.

Yeah, that’s what gets me the most too. Six months ago, it was a great idea. Today it’s devil spawn. What changed in between ? Slow news week ?

here’s an analysis of how this shit storm started

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@Marley23

There’s already a memorial there - I think they did finish that exposed wall with all the names of the victims on it. And they’re going to build a musem, too. Why do they need to go tear down a strip club two blocks away and build another one? How many of these freaking things do we need exactly?

There’s a general 9/11 memorial but they charge admission. I think there will be an open one next to the Freedom Tower.

There’s a firefighters’ memorial on an exposed wall around the corner (that was, for no apparent reason, covered by scaffolding when I was last there).

[RickJay]

Air date for us Canadian folks who have to get it off a different web site?

[Gangster_Octopus]

One other thing that Jon brings up, for those who can’t watch the video, is how the hate mongers somehow seem to think building a “Terrorist Command Center” would be fine as long as it wasn’t near Ground Zero.

[Anduril]

@cosmosdan

@Anduril

“Steward agreed and said he himself was wrong on the issue at the time.”

So convenient, isn’t it? My point still stands. If Pastor Hagee decided to build a cathedral in the middle of Baghdad where a lot of Muslims died in the war, people will say that Pastor Hagee is an insensitive arrogant prick. So are the Muslims who insist on building that mosque.

That’s ridiculous. There were already over a million Christians with churches and everything, before the war began. The Manhattan community center was no big deal until the fear and hate mongers started misrepresenting it as the ground zero mosque. It’s neither. Jon makes a very relevant demonstration of the irresponsible game of guilt by remote association Fox has been playing.
The point Jon makes is that although it’s understandable to have an emotional reaction if we abandon basic principles in doing so we’re wrong.
or as Heston put it.
“Each horrible act can’t become an axe for opportunist to cleave the very bill of rights that binds us”

It’s really a shame if you can’t see the point being made so clearly and so well. It’s like this.
If someone objected to Hagee building a cathedral/community center in Baghdad simply because he was a Christian and other Christians had done bad things in Baghdad , they’d be wrong, just as you are wrong now.

Although I do agree Hagee is a prick, just not for that reason

First off, if it were just a community center, do you really think people will be bothered? A mosque will be built, there’s no getting around that. Secondly, a not insignificant number of Muslims will hail it as a symbol of their religion’s victory over America. For that reason alone, they’re pricks. Do they have every right to place it there? Sure. I’m not contesting that. I’m just bothered by the knee-jerk reaction of some liberals that there’s nothing to be bothered about. Muslims are well known for building mosques over conquered soil (most of the time over church grounds)- why would this be seen any different. Cordova? Don’t you think it’s a bit too suggestive.

I support their right to build it there, so I’m not abandoning any of my principles - I just think they’re pricks for pushing through with it. I also think those who protest the building are not thinking clearly about all the issues but let’s not pretend that the building of this mosque is anything but a symbolic act from supporters of the most barbaric religion today.

[Anduril]

@cosmosdan

The point isn’t that the two situations are exactly analogous, but that the feelings are analogous. Irrational anger directed at a group that is not connected to the horrible event.

The anger is directed because of the insensitivity of that group. You’re all for appeasing the sensibilities of everyone in the world but when it comes to your own people, somehow that’s wrong?

*An Christian extremist group just bombed a very old mosque in Baghdad, killing 3,000 people. Years later, Pastor X decides to build a cathedral just two blocks away from this place. His many sermons have been about spreading Christianity in the Middle East. Muslims expressed their anger. *

Do you really expect me to believe that people here will not excoriate Pastor X for his insensitivity? Really?!?

[elucidator]

@Anduril

…Secondly, a not insignificant number of Muslims will hail it as a symbol of their religion’s victory over America…

Wow, I did not know that! Please advise as to where you obtained this insight into international Islam, and from whom.

[TriPolar]

@Anduril

Secondly, a not insignificant number of Muslims will hail it as a symbol of their religion’s victory over America. For that reason alone, they’re pricks.

Can you name one?

Muslims are well known for building mosques over conquered soil (most of the time over church grounds)- why would this be seen any different. Cordova? Don’t you think it’s a bit too suggestive.

Let’s see, which right wing hate monger’s lies are you repeating? Newt Gingrich right?

… but let’s not pretend that the building of this mosque is anything but a symbolic act from supporters of the most barbaric religion today.

Let’s not pretend that your unsubstaniated claims are anything but a symbolic act from the a group of barbaric hate-mongers who cheered the deaths of many more Muslims than Americans than were killed on 9/11, and call for the deaths of all others.

[XT]

@TriPolar

Can you name one?

Presumably this guy.

Islamic expert Tawfik Hamid tells Newsmax that many Muslims will view the construction of a mosque near ground zero as symbolizing a “triumph over America.”

He also declares that if the mosque is built it could prove to be the “spark” that begins a “war between civilizations.”

-XT

[markdash]

@xtisme

@TriPolar

Can you name one?

Presumably this guy.

Islamic expert Tawfik Hamid tells Newsmax that many Muslims will view the construction of a mosque near ground zero as symbolizing a “triumph over America.”

He also declares that if the mosque is built it could prove to be the “spark” that begins a “war between civilizations.”

-XT

But he’s just parroting what that other guy said. Hamid didn’t say he would view the mosque as a trophy. It’s all speculation at this point.

[Anduril]

@TriPolar

@Anduril

Secondly, a not insignificant number of Muslims will hail it as a symbol of their religion’s victory over America. For that reason alone, they’re pricks.

Can you name one?

Let’s see, which right wing hate monger’s lies are you repeating? Newt Gingrich right?

… but let’s not pretend that the building of this mosque is anything but a symbolic act from supporters of the most barbaric religion today.

Let’s not pretend that your unsubstaniated claims are anything but a symbolic act from the a group of barbaric hate-mongers who cheered the deaths of many more Muslims than Americans than were killed on 9/11, and call for the deaths of all others.

Wow! If you really believe that NO muslim will hail this as a victory, there’s no arguing with you. Islam is a religion of peace - all peaceful verses there - not at all abrogated by the most violent verses. No Muslim terrorists at all. No mosques built over destroyed cathedrals. No cheering from muslims in the aftermath of 9/11 Right? Right?

And I’m not at all getting anything from right wing idiots. The fact that we have the same position doesn’t mean that we arrived at it from the same spot.

And exactly, when have I cheered the deaths of many muslims? Ahhhh… you think I’m a right wing nut? You’re wrong. I’m as liberal as you can ever get. I just don’t stupidly let knee-jerk reactions form my opinions.

[TriPolar]

@Anduril

Wow! If you really believe that some muslims will hail this as a victory, there’s no arguing with you. Islam is a religion of peace - all peaceful verses there - not at all abrogated by the most violent verses. No Muslim terrorists at all. Right? Right?

And I’m not at all getting anything from right wing idiots. The fact that we have the same position doesn’t mean that we arrived at it from the same spot.

And exactly, when have I cheered the deaths of many muslims? Ahhhh… you think I’m a right wing ideologue. You’re wrong. I’m as liberal as you can ever get. I’m just don’t stupidly let knee-jerk reactions form my opinions.

So you can’t name one. Is that correct?

[XT]

@markdash

But he’s just parroting what that other guy said. Hamid didn’t say he would view the mosque as a trophy. It’s all speculation at this point.

Sure, I agree. But that’s probably where it’s coming from…which was my point.

-XT

[Anduril]

@TriPolar

@Anduril

Wow! If you really believe that some muslims will hail this as a victory, there’s no arguing with you. Islam is a religion of peace - all peaceful verses there - not at all abrogated by the most violent verses. No Muslim terrorists at all. Right? Right?

And I’m not at all getting anything from right wing idiots. The fact that we have the same position doesn’t mean that we arrived at it from the same spot.

And exactly, when have I cheered the deaths of many muslims? Ahhhh… you think I’m a right wing ideologue. You’re wrong. I’m as liberal as you can ever get. I’m just don’t stupidly let knee-jerk reactions form my opinions.

So you can’t name one. Is that correct?

Joseph. :rolleyes: Do you really think your question means anything?

[markdash]

I think the point that’s being made is “There are Muslims who will view this as a trophy” is as lazy as a reporter interjecting their opinion by using the phrase “Some say…”

Who can say how many people feel this way unless you can provide some sort of concrete evidence of this fact?

Some say that Obama is not a member of Homo Sapiens. Should we give their opinion any merit?

[cosmosdan]

@elucidator

If you stop and reflect upon which political party most recently marched in lockstep to deny benefits to 9/11 first responders and so forth, and who might therefore be eager to change the subject and let gush the tears crocodilian…

Might get a little clearer.

No shit! Isn’t that something? Vote against health care for first responders and then create outrage over this on the basis of insluting the scared memory of 9/11.