While listening to the wonderful 2000 Broadway revival cast recording of Andrew Lloyd Weber’s “Jesus Christ Superstar,” a line by Judas in “Superstar” struck me:
So, why then and not now? If a guy showed up today and could actually do the things it was claimed Jesus could do, no doubt he’d make headlines and convert a much larger amount of people.
And the first person who says “the Lord works in mysterious ways” gets popped in the nose.
Esprix
The Lord works in… uh… awkward ways?
Great question, Esprix! I imagine this will develop into a really great debate. As people file into the thread, I’d like to say up front that I think Jesus Himself put it best:
If God were looking for slaves, I quite imagine he would sit on a throne in the sky, orbiting the earth day and night, and rain down miracles to shock people into obedience. (For that matter, he could just create our Spirits without free-will.) But He isn’t looking to acquire slaves; He is looking to free them.
Another good view on this is from Kahlil Gibran’s Jesus the Son of Man, when Judas was flabbergasted by a view of Jerusalem at night from a hill. The fires and torches sparkled in the dark of evening like beautiful jewels brilliantly displayed on black velvet. Judas turned to Jesus and gushed, “Oh Master! Just look what you will inherit when you come into your kingdom.”
Jesus replied, “Oh Judas, do you truly believe that I came down through the ages to rule an anthill for a day?”
Men’s hearts don’t change from miracles. When they see a miracle, it is like eating a meal. Lasts for a bit, but then they always want more. Remember that when Jesus fed the thousands with the loaves and fishes, some of them followed Him after He left and asked Him if He would perform just one more miracle so they could be sure He was the Son of God. It’s the old what-have-you-done-for-me-lately syndrome.
Libertarian, would you say that our present society probably wouldn’t be impressed by a Jesus miracle, and would demand more?
I suppose He would rather we came to the path through soul-searching and witnessing, rather than being converted by tremendous fireworks displays – which might not even work.
Maybe Jesus had the power to mass communicate back then even? Its not like he was limited by the Isrealites technology.
Really our present society is in large part determined by what happened then. Maybe 3/4ths of the earth would be dead by “the great rat poisoning of 1812”.
By the time of Jesus’ arrival, 400 years had passed since a prophet had spoken in Israel. Israel had been through the whole Maccabean (sp?) revolt and all and had then been thoroughly brutalized by Rome. Jesus arrived amidst a people who were desperate for a messiah.
Also, the Pax Romana had made the world a reasonably safe and secure place in which to spread the Gospel. In theory, at least.
Well, frrm a skeptical perspective, I’d have to say that Jesus lived 2000 years ago for the same reason that Appolonius of Tyana, Peregrinus, Honi the Circle Drawer, Simon the Magician, The Egyptian, Theudas, the weaver Jonathan, etc. all lived in that era. People were ignorant and superstitious. They believed things upon scant evidence. Religious cults built around a miraculous individual were a dime a dozen. Even the most scientific and skeptical historians report miracles as though they were reporting yesterday’s box scores.
If Jesus were to live today, he wouldn’t perform any miracles because he didn’t perform any then. The reason that the Jesus of the gospels could perform many miracles is more due to the intellectual climate of the era than the character and abilities of the actual historical Jesus. Or, as David Hume put it, “Why don’t we see such things today?” The obvious conclusion is that they didn’t happen then either.
AlbertRose:
Yes. They didn’t impress me, even when I was an atheist. I saw “miracles” as a Satanist. Big deal. A miracle is nothing but an advanced technology.
I know of many people who have had their lives changed completely, and have based their lifelong faith in just one small event. Most of them not even approaching miracle status. So to say that men’s hearts are not changed by miracles is rather foolish. In today’s modern world it would take a bit more than changing water to wine, I think, but something akin to Lazarus would be bound to make some people stop and think. The only real problem is that you get the exact same thing now as you got then. If YOU don’t see it personally, no matter how many times you read it in the paper, or see it on the news, you are gonna be skeptical. A better idea would be for Jesus or God to perhaps show themselves to all of us. Problem solved. Believers galore.
[anecdote warning…]
Then they’re not miracles.
Whyzzat? You said they’re not miracles.
Stop and think about what? “Oh, woe is us! What a great Mojo!”
Yep, people haven’t changed much essentially.
“Blessed are they who believe but have not seen.” — Jesus
A better idea? 
Well, gosh, if He’s so dumb His ideas could be better, who needs Him?
What problem?
He already has believers galore, thank you very much.
I think what you’re suggesting is this: if people have changed their lives based on something less than a miracle, then a miracle, which would be more intense, could stimulate others to change their lives. Is that what you mean?
The question I have is…How exactly would Jesus/God show themselves to us? Maybe a thunderous voice from the heavens, accompanied by twelve great plagues could do the trick. Or, as you suggested, someone dying and coming back to life. With James Randi present.
But I’m not entirely sure if that’s the point. Sure, God could do these things (and has already done so, if I remember my Bible stories correctly), but does He really feel it to be necessary? I don’t know, which is why I’m glad Esprix asked the question.
C’mon, Lib, don’t you think Silly Putty is a miracle? What about those Fruit Loops marshmallows? Or, hell, Motel 6?
Those are all miracles, and have changed my life in profound, meaningful ways.
(Note: The point of this post is to show that a miracle can be whatever someone wants to think is a miracle.)
Sure, some people can believe without miracles. The right circumstances at the right time can make someone evaluate their life, the existence of God, whatever. That doesn’t really say much about miracles. The same people who would believe, long-term, based on miracles are probably those who don’t need them.
Nowdays, we’re all a bunch of skeptics (which is both good and bad, but that’s another debate). We’re raised to be so. Many of us start out believing in Santa and the Easter Bunny, and then realize the adults all pulled one over on us. We have magic shows, where you can’t believe what your eyes are telling you. We have all sorts of special effects. We have documentaries about debunking UFOS, hauntings, etc. Even among many of the religious, there’s an attitute of skepticism toward miracles and the supernatural. Considering how many hoaxes there are, this is perfectly understandable. But my point is that it would be hard for even large-scale, real miracles to make believers of the unbelieving. We’d pass off water-walking and crowd-feeding as magic acts. And that’s those of us who saw it in person. Over mass media, where anything could be doctored. . .
In short, the best time for Jesus to come was when people were more simplistic and believing, rather than a cynical and jaded generation. Besides, it worked, didn’t it?
How about looking at it from an historical perspective. By manifesting when he did Jesus had the opportunity to see his teachings travel throughout the Roman Empire. By the right historical positioning those teachings were adopted when the rulers of that empire saw their civilisation threatened by enemies (if I remember my history/mythology correctly). That adoption as the official religion of Europe allowed those teachings to be spread to the four corners of the Earth via the colonial European nations centuries later. Presto, a prophecy fulfilled.
If Jesus appeared in the good old US today then maybe he could perform miracles and get on Ricki Lake. But people in a technological age are jaded and are hard pressed believing in miracles. Even if he was believed there would be no impetus for the adoption of his disciples’ teachings as a national religion because America is very secure and doesn’t strongly feel the need for divine protection in battle. Of course state endorsed religions are unconstitutional anyhow. But if the constitution were changed and the nation threatened with war and the religion became the official religion of the USA I can’t imagine their ever being scope for massive US colonial expansion that could take religion overseas on a large scale. From what I have seen the success of US religions like the Latter Day Saints and the Jehovah’s Witnesses overseas is limited at best. You really need military colonialism to give economic and moral support to missionaries to get religious messages across.
In summary I’d have to say that I can’t for the life of me imagine a better time for Jesus to have arrived to get his message heard and heard well across the entire world. Television may be good but it really can’t be compared with the work done by the conquistadors, pilgrims, crusaders and English, French and German missionaries in spreading the word (and in many cases forcing people to listen to it at gun point).
Our generation could be convinced by true miracles. If God wanted to get our attention, he could do so very easily. Blacken the sun. Rearrange the stars into a Dashboard Virgin Mary. Move continents. Raise the dead. Something that a million or a billion would witness unambiguously. I know old jaded agnostic me would perk right up with any one of those things.
Granted, to paraphrase Arthur C. Clarke, a highly advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. But, if God truly wanted to get our attention, he could do so easily. Have you seen the movie “The Rapture”? If you haven’t, the movie loses nothing by me telling you that the last scene is the Rapture straight from Daniel, Ezekiel, and Revelations. It would get my attention.
Now I’m gonna ramble cause I’m tired.
Why did Jesus come 2000 years ago? My personal beliefs state that it was not a unique event, just that his beliefs resonated strongly in his world (and have continued to do so for 2000 years). As has been pointed out, there were many false messiahs around the time of Jesus and before and since. These things have tapered off, though. I believe this was due to a paradigm shift in human civilization.
The reason, I believe, is because human civilization has been actively throwing out the supernatural since we crawled out of caves. Religion, at least in the West, seems to have been progressively streamlined since the days of pantheism. Every religion claims to usurp and encompass all of the previous religions. Jews were God’s Chosen People, but Jesus fulfilled the Law. Mohammed is the Last Prophet. Or Buddha. Or maybe the Bahaullah. Each of these guys had a message which jibed with their time and place. Each has resonated to a certain degree due to perhaps common universal truths (do unto others, etc.)
Since the Renaissance and the Industrial Revolution, we have found ourselves able to explain more of the world around us. We have moved away from dependence on religion as a social stabilizer and as the advancer of human thought and philosophy. The time when the best minds in a community became clergy and rabbis has long passed. The time of prophets and miracles has also ended.
Does this mean religion per se has to disappear in the next few hundred years? I believe religion will still be around, but not in its current form. Modern religions are stretching and straining to try and accomodate changes that have occured since they were first codified, and sooner or later something will come along that will again resonate strongly with the current world.
Einstein believed that religion existed in the mysteries of the universe. This, along with universal truths from current religions which may help us attain harmonious interpersonal relations, could form the core of this new religion. The rules of science would form a key pillar.
Someone will state this eloquently. Someone will preach tolerance and love and acceptance of change and the unknown. Someone will give us a philosophy by which we can live for the next 2000 years. It is only a matter of time.
To be brutally frank, there were plenty of preachers like Jesus 2000 years ago in Israel and surroundings. Jesus, if he existed at all, is the one around whom myths accreted. Therefore we remember him.
Simple answer … because he knows that people would be giving him too much crap about why he’s not accepting James Randi’s challenge.
Edwino:
How would seeing the sun blackened cause us to love one another?
Euty, you got there before me.
Though Jesus would probably not accept Randi’s offer.
Opus: What do you mean back then a religious cult could form around a seemingly miraculous personality?
It still happens nowadays!
Libertarian:
How does a fiery pillar cause us to love one another? How about swarms of locusts? Or Sodom and Gomorrah? Or fiery angels or walking on the water or water into wine?
All I was saying was that there is some record that God knows how to get our attention. I was addressing the previous posters who believed that modern society is too jaded to notice a miracle.
The second half of my post just stated that I think humankind has moved past the age of miracles. I don’t think someone bearing a universal message needs miracles anymore for his message to resonate to a billion people. I don’t think that they need to rely on the supernatural at all. Someone could teach us to love one another without blackening the sun in today’s day and age. A truly omnipotent God just would have it on His Option List.