Believers all seem to be okay with the fact that God pulled a lot of really spectacular miracles off years ago, but he seems to have taken a long extended vacation from the miracle biz ever since. So what’s the deal? Was JC the last word in miracles of the “Hey everybody, check this out!” variety? Back in the day, God made a pretty good showing of things, global floods, plagues, stopping the sun for a while, sending his angels to kill all Egypts firstborns and the like. When Jesus came on the scene he took over the miracle bit, but now…nothing. So, what is the standing hypothesis among theists as to why God decided to take a hands-off approach? Why did he go from “Do it or I’ll smite you!” to playing cosmic hide-and-seek? Does it seem fair that he would chat up the ancestors in person, yet leave enough room for doubt that we heretical atheists can proclaim loudly that he doesn’t exist without the slightest anticipation of a bolt from the blue?
Even an agnostic can field this one.
You can pick either:
A) Miracles can’t happen, because they’d be proof of God’s existence, and God wants us to believe based on faith. I know this sounds a lot like Douglas Adams’ babelfish joke, but I think that’s how most religious people would defend the infrequency of miracles.
B) Miracles happen all the time, but you just don’t notice them or believe in them. For the life of me I don’t know how this squares with A, but I know that the Catholic Church ascribes various miracles to the intercession of saints, and there are the regular appearances of the Virgin Mary, and faith healing seems to be fairly common. So, God still does act in the world.
As to why we’re less favored than the ancients, one argument is that miracles were more common back when the Israelites had their direct relationship with God. Now that we’re expected to come to God through Christ, there’s no need for God’s direct intercession anymore – we have all the tools we need to arrive at salvation. So, no more miracles. Except for those that still occur. Like I said, I don’t know how A and B square together.
Which is why you see a lot of:
C) It’s a mystery. God’s like that. It’ll all make sense to you later.
I think I’ve succeeded in being less flip than you were (although I’m still pretty much a smartass), but I doubt any Christians will be pleased with your tone in the OP – you did everything but open with “Hey stupid-heads!” There’s still hope that you’ll get a polite answer from the true believers, though.
I’d like to get a word in before the shit hits the fan. I don’t know too much about you, Ptahlis, but what you are doing here sounds worryingly similar to what pashley was trying to do, only in reverse. I know how the atheists (like myself) and agnostics reacted when they were called upon to justify their beliefs to some guy who only seemed interested in telling them how wrong they were. I don’t know what your intentions are, but the tone you used seems rather confrontational, and probably won’t go over too well. May I suggest that you clarify exactly what it is you want to know about theistic beliefs? If you simply want to know about the role of direct divine communication then and now, then I’m sure you’ll get many interesting responses. But if you’re going to use this as fodder for a “proof” of theistic erroneousness, then I suggest you don your asbestos underwear posthaste.
Hmm he didnt seem to bad to me, maybe thats because I was debating earlier with a guy who classified believers as everything wrong with the world and blamed every single bad event that ever happened on believers. (he even called agonistics believers)
Ptahlis wrote:
No He hasn’t! Just look at how many times the face of the Virgin Mary has appeared in a tortilla!
I believe the last miracle was the Mets back in '69.
Yer pal,
Satan
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Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 44 minutes and 22 seconds.
916 cigarettes not smoked, saving $114.53.
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A) Miracles can’t happen, because they’d be proof of God’s existence, and God wants us to believe based on faith. I know this sounds a lot like Douglas Adams’ babelfish joke, but I think that’s how most religious people would defend the infrequency of miracles.
If that were the case, how would you account for all the miracles described in the Bible?
B) Miracles happen all the time, but you just don’t notice them or believe in them. For the life of me I don’t know how this squares with A, but I know that the Catholic Church ascribes various miracles to the intercession of saints, and there are the regular appearances of the Virgin Mary, and faith healing seems to be fairly common. So, God still does act in the world.
I suppose that’s a possibility, though AFAIK a miracle, by definition, is something for which the only explanation is supernatural. Every recent event that I have heard described as a miracle could have happened without divine intervention. However, I suppose God could theoretically be influencing the world in ways too subtle to be indisputably classified as miracles.
C) It’s a mystery. God’s like that. It’ll all make sense to you later.
This seems to be the universal excuse for any logica question regarding religion.
Mmmmmaybe, Satan. But I think the 1981 NCSU Wolfpack win in the NCAA finals might qualify. Especially in your neck of the woods.
-andros-
Even the visions of the Virgin Mary at Lourdes, Guadalupe, Fatima, etc…? Or saints Michael, Catherine and Margaret appearing to Joan of Arc?
I’m sure you could explain those without postulating the existence of a deity, but how are they different from events related in the bible?
Hate to pick nits, andros, but 'twas 1983. And as long as we’re in ACC country, how 'bout Laettner’s NCAA buzzer-beater against UConn in '90, and against Kentucky in '92? Okay, so they weren’t miracles (it was a miracle Leattner wasn’t ejected earlier in the UK game for the stomp on Timberlake), but as a Duke alum, I still find 'em pretty damn cool. 
First off, I was flip, and I should have been more politic. That’s what happens to me after arguing sometimes.
As to A, that is an argument based on contemporary Christian beliefs, but it doesn’t address the reason behind the change, nor the concerns of the Jews who think that Jesus was not the messiah. B also doesn’t quite get at what I’m asking, because the “quiet miracle” argument doesn’t explain the change from the big grandiose type miracle that left few doubters and plenty of physical evidence behind. Sure, Noah and his family might have been the only survivors there, but having angels going through Cairo killing babies is far less deniable.
As far as the “having all the tools we need to arrive at salvation” argument, we are missing at least one tool that the ancients had, undeniable proof. Plus, I am not aware of (though won’t deny it exists) any texts in either the Jewish or Christian faiths that explain the idea that God would all of a sudden take a hands off approach.
I never said anything about “proof” of anything, but I am asking for a justification of sorts. There is a dichotomy between the tales of miracles of yore and the everyday world we live in.
You are right in that I could have been less confrontational, but I had just been through the same discussion with someone who basically was putting that “You’re going to hell” bit on me and then couldn’t come up with any reason for the very dichotomy I mentioned. He didn’t even bother to go for “faith” as an answer, but actually said “I never thought about it!” AARGH! I’m getting torqued up again just thinking about it. Basically, he judged and condemned me based on a faith about which he has practiced little reflection just because he has had it fed to him his whole life. That is why it spilled over into the question I asked.
Let me restate it. Why is God now hands off as opposed to ancient times? Why does he not make himself known to a world full of nonbelievers who may say or do anything they like with impunity (so far as heavenly retribution goes) when his previous policy was to punish the mortal offender as an example to others who denied/opposed him? And finally, what textual basis, if any, is there to support the belief that his SOP would so radically change?
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The distinction I would draw is between the “maybe this is a miracle” type miracle that you can debate, and the type that is pretty undeniable. If I ended up married to a pillar of salt, or watched a baby being slaughtered by an angel, or stood outside the smoking ruins of Sodom and Gomorrah after the firestorm, I’d have a lot of physical evidence on hand to corroborate the miracle viewpoint. Others may debate my testimony, but I’d have something to show them as well. Plus, the whole thing with Moses saying “Let us go,” and then calling down plagues of locusts, turning the river to blood. There is a certain weight of evidence beyond which the deity explanation is not very deniable. I don’t think Lourdes or Joan of Arc is in the same league.
The reason I had always heard was that miracles make poor faith builders. After all, look at Moses. He splits the Red Sea and his followers get manna from heaven, yet they still end up building an idol and Moses has to wander the desert for forty years waiting for them all to die off.
Some people, if they build their faith on one isolated event, may find themselves over the following years doubting what they saw and trying to justify it as anything other than a miracle.
[minor hijack]
The Catholics still believe in miracles right? If I recall correctly to become a saint there needs to be evidence for at least three miracles. So do the modern day miracles eventually get added to Catholic canon? Or do they still consider the Bible the only “official” book?
[/minor hijack]
Well, your question, as stated really doesn’t include all the outfits which, like the LDS, believe in continuing revelation.
What’s your real agenda, btw?
Explain what is meant by continuing revelation, and what relation this has to the grand miracles if you would.
As to my agenda, I want to know. Is there ever any kind of text that says basically “this is why God doesn’t intervene in any grandly visible fashion any more.” Does Jesus say anything to that affect? Or do any of the prophets deliver a message from God saying he will no longer obviously manifest his presence to the masses? Jews and Christians alike are more than welcome to answer. I don’t know that there are any references that will address this, but then again I don’t know that there aren’t either. There just seems to be a sort of “Age of Big Miracles” that stands in opposition to what we experience now, and never do I hear an explanation of this based on anything textual.
Secondarily, if there really aren’t textual passages explaining this, then what reason do the theists believe explains the apparent disparity?
The Orthodox Jewish answer to this question:
There was not a sudden stoppage of miracles, there was a gradual lessening of them. As generations progressed further and further from the ideals G-d stated at Sinai (remember, this this the Orthodox Jewish answer…obviously, Christians think that the lifetime of JC was the pinnacle of human existance, and other religions have their own answers), people were less and less often deserving of a changing of the natural order for their sake.
I’ll throw out something just for the fun of it. This has bothered me too a little. Perhaps the big guy doesn’t perform any grandiose miracles because he realizes that every scientist and non-believer will drive themselves crazy trying to disprove it. It isn’t like I haven’t heard theroies as to how some of those miracles may have occurred.
There is that Mormon story about the locusts and sea gulls at the Great Salt Lake. That story is only about a 100 years old. I live about two hours from the beach and we have sea gulls in the Walmart parking lot, but I’m sure to the early Mormon settlers that really was a miracle. If there is any truth to the story.
Needs
The fact that people from different religions–or even the same religion–who are pretty much cut from the same cloth give radically different and incompatible answers to various questions doesn’t do much for the credibility of any of them.
If it was ‘undeniable proof’ wouldn’t everyone be christian now? I mean, how could jews remain jews if they are faced with undeniable proof of God’s and then JC’s power and divinity?
This thread seems to be running on the assumption that the miracles mentioned in the bible happened as described. Maybe we don’t see many spectacular miracles today compared to the distant past because there never were spectacular miracles in the first place.
When was the bible written? 500 A.D.? 1200 A.D.? Whenever it was there was obviously a good period of time between the ‘miracles’ and their chronicling. Most of us probably played that phone game in kindergarten where each kid whispers in the ear of the kid next to him (or her). By the time the word finishes rounding the circle it’s not quite what it started out to be. I’m sure we could all think of several possibilities of true stories that grew into the fantastic miracles listed in the bible.
It seems that the decrease in miracles goes hand-in-hand with better record keeping. The dark ages, with poor record keeping, is filled with myth and folklore of remarkable events. Once you get to the present era with excellent record keeping miracles seem few and far between.
I think life itself may be considered a miracle (or at the very least a very cool property of the universe) but my personal guess is that God is pretty much a hands-off entity. Why would an omnipotent, omniscient being fiddle around in the affairs of man? The miracles, then and now, can probably be ascribed to bizarre events…a plague that killed children, a landslide dumping red mud into a river, etc… The stories grew through the ages and became the angel of death, a river turned to blood.
Jeff_42 carefully slips into his asbestos suit