Judd Apatow's Lazily Written Black Characters

The BBQ Pit
41

Alright - it’s hard for me to argue to strongly about the scene, because again I don’t think it was that big of a deal - what affected me more was the depressing, life-sucks revelation that he’s only allowed to let in a certain percentage of black people, if that’s actually based on reality.

But mainly I’m just highly intolerant of black characters played to type - this annoyingly over-represented collection of mannerisms attached to black characters as a rule - especially when it’s in so-called intelligent productions. Anyone familiar with “My Name is Earl” will know what I’m talking about, in that none of their black characters are played to type, yet they’re all completely natural seeming (I have to point out a counter-example because type is so common and compulsory these days that it’s the default way of portraying a black character).

42

Maybe my posts haven’t been the best way to argue my point, but I really agree with Miller - his monologue was hysterical, and not at all (to me) because of any jokes about/concerning his skin colour.

I don’t know - perhaps I’m being ignorant as I don’t know a lot of club people, my friends are all nerds - but isn’t that how many hip urban people talk?

43

Did it ever occur to you that some stereotypes are out there for a reason, and for Apatow to avoid them would make him a hack?

I’m sorry, but a lot of black people act the way they do and talk the way they do for a reason. It’s not some big fucking conspiracy. Many, many black people are raised almost exclusively around other black people. So they end up creating their own culture and own language.

Also, since many black people live in poor neighborhoods, and gang related areas, they have to be strong. They are raised to stick up for themselves, to never back down. If they don’t, then simply walking down the street could mean getting punk’ed. I’m sorry but most white men don’t have to deal with this.

Not only that but they are raised to be strong, to be proud black men, because the real world still sucks. There’s still racism out there. If they’re told to just “go with the flow” they will have a much more difficult time making it in life.

And no, of course not all black men are like this. We just associate personalities based on experience, simply because it makes things simple. There’s no such thing as acting white, or acting black. Obviously when it comes down to it, every person is unique. I think we’re at least another 50 years away until we get to a point where there’s no “acting like [insert race]”. Until then, we don’t have to pretend we’re blind of our surroundings.

Also, did you really just use “My Name is Earl” as an example for realistic black men? None of the characters on that show are even remotely realistic. They’re all comedic actors.

Lastly, you shouldn’t compare Freaks and Geeks to any of his movies. That show was a masterpiece, filled with extremely realistic people and situations. The movies, although still very realistic, are simply about churning jokes out, with a little drama on the side.

44

Yes and yes, and sticking to them exclusively also makes you hack. Which is why Apatow usually doesn’t do so - except with black characters.

45

…thanks professor, but I don’t think anyone’s unfamiliar with this particular narrative of black life. We get it. We got it a long time ago. Thing is it’s nowhere near as relevant a story IRL in relation to how often it’s invoked in entertainment media. I’m sorry (not really) but most black men don’t have to deal with this either.

I didn’t say realistic (or men). They’re just funny black characters who aren’t cliches.

46

I may be misreading it, but it seems like you’re coming off as “won’t someone think of the black people!!!” like they desperately need your help.
I honestly don’t know which is worse, a blatant racist, or an obsessive anti-racist who feels feels pity on every minority.

My ex was like this. She would go off on these like hour long rants about how she hates every person who is racist. She hates how black people are displayed in the media, etc.

And then one day we were watching a Def Comedy Jam video, and she somehow got upset about how the black people in the audience were reacting to the jokes!!! Like somehow they were faking it, the way they would stand up, cheer, and say loud things… It was just like, holy shit… That’s just what they do, because that’s what they do. Get the fuck over it.

47

pssst . . . pizzablack is black.

48

Hah. Had something on your mind there? :wink:

49

Then you are really misreading it (or just making some awful attempt to embarrass me, since I can’t see how this response logically follows what you quoted).

50

I’m sorry for projecting my ex girlfriend’s personality onto yours. Obviously, I was jumping to conclusions.

I do think I know what you’re getting at, in that to remove negative stereotypes, black men should be shown as just regular every day people.

The problem here, and the same problem with affirmative action, is that sometimes it can do more harm than good.

What happens when all black men are displayed in media without a hint of stereotypical “black” persona? If I were black, I would be deeply offended. I’d think every director was a giant pussy, and was too afraid to hurt my feelings.

Do I think the black men in these two films were stereotypical? A little bit. But mostly it was simply an over the top attempt at humor. Like a lot of scenes in the movies. While many of the laughs in Virgin and Knocked Up come off as natural. Sometimes it’s just Apatow saying “here’s a joke”. I don’t think of him as lazy or a hack. I just think he was trying to make people laugh.

51

But look at the main four male characters. Out of all the guys that we get to know, Jay is the only one whose personality is based almost completely on racial stereotypes. He’s emotional, he’s loud and jive-talkin, he’s hot-tempered, he’s a player, he gets in fights on the job, he raps and sings. The other two characters in Carrell’s clique are free of that kind of treatment. They are who they are without respect to race.

Carrell’s character is a stereotypical dork, true. But that’s what the movie is ostensibly about. You’d expect a movie called the 40 year old virgin to play to that particular stereotype.

52

No! To create more realistic and funnier characters. To more accurately portray real life. To produce more effective and familiar comedy.

Hmm. I don’t think I would at this point. Think about it - if you often see yourself in characters who match your skin color, i.e. feel well represented in entertainment media, would you even notice the absence of, let alone demand representations of some other type of people who match your ethnic background but don’t act like you at all?

Besides, there are existing non-hacks who are adept at mixing type blacks and normal blacks in their fiction. Look at “South Park”. Look at “Drawn Together”. It’s not some great feat. It hardly takes more than a non-dismissive view of blacks.

53

[related, slightly amusing story]
This reminds me of a time where a white member of group of comic artists I was meeting with told me to check out his comic online. When I went to look, I was spooked find that it featured a black character, and was scared to read any further lest I lose respect for the artist (whom I admired, initially). A couple of days later I revisited it and was pleasantly surprised to find that the black character neither swore superfluously nor spoke exclusively in slang. But I promised myself that I’d never mention that to him since it’d reveal that I expected the worst from him as a “clueless white guy”. Of course, since all of our meetings include drinking, I did slip-up and eventually mention that I was impressed that his black character wasn’t type. He didn’t seem to mind though (and probably didn’t pick up on the insult it implied. Or maybe he did and didn’t say anything…).[/rsas]

54

Strangely enough, on the 40 Year Old Virgin DVD commentary, Seth Rogen says that the character of Jay was originally written as a white guy.

55

So, basically, you cast this artist fellow into a lazily written white character.

56

I swear, I learn more about what racial stereotypes are supposed to be on here than anywhere else. I’m in no way saying I don’t believe you, but - hot-tempered? Emotional?

On the other hand, I had no clue that black people are supposed to be loud or that “articulate” has racist overtones either.

I’m still not seeing how to find the balance, though. I agree with Senior Smith that people wouldn’t be (or shouldn’t be) particularly happy pretending that African-Americans always speak the exact same way and have the same cultural traditions as non-African-Americans. For me, at least, the doorman didn’t exaggerate these differences but seemed pretty natural.

57

Basically.

58

Yeah, the stereotype of the overly agressive, irrational, emotion-driven black person is as old as dirt. Just like Asians are supposed to quiet and analytical, and whites are supposed to be dorky and soulless.

59

I thought the Mediterranean folks had a lock on hot-tempered - Spanish and Italian and all that.

Well, good to know, I guess.

60

I agree it is a cheap easy laugh for a black guy to call someone a bitch- see also the completely unncessary Marlon Wayans character in the otherwise enjoyable The Ladykillers. The Coens should have been above that, Judd Apatow, maybe he needed two extra minutes to fill and didn’t want to do a lot of thinking on it. Even “better”, writers who think it funny to have a black guy call a white guy a bitch- see also the SNL Tracy Morgan bit where he says to Lorne Michaels “get me a soda bitch”. :rolleyes: