You know, for once I’d like to see a black comedian with more material than just about being black. Dave Chappelle is quality, but Chis Rock, Martin Lawrence, Paul Mooney, and just about any black comedian on Comedy Central or Premium Blend. My guess is they play to their audience with black stereotype on full blast to give credence to their “My momma was tough” jokes. I get it, you’re black, now is there something else you’d like to say?
Yeah, *our * hot-temperedness is just not considered exotic, is all.
I don’t know how old that Asian stereotype is. I always thought the stereotype of Asians as overachievers and geeks was pretty recent. When Asian immigrants first came here, they were thought of as depraved, violent savages and drug users, at least if you read old stuff written back in the 1800s. The stereotype of whites as soulless and dorky, I would guess, is a pretty recent one too. My guess (and it’s just a guess) would be that it was only when the cool music of the time became heavily black-influenced (rock, funk, hip-hop and rap) that those who were actively and perceptibly “white” in their tastes were seen as uncool. Before then, white people would surely be stereotyped as soulless by, say, a jazz musician in the 30s, but nowadays you have WHITE people saying, “that kid is just a suburban white boy” or whatnot.
On the other hand, the stereotype of blacks (and Irish, and Italians) as being overly aggressive, irrational, and driven by emotions is old as dirt.
Mm. Well, I don’t remember Jay rapping and singing at all. (Apart from the finale, that is, but everyone sang!) Funnily enough I’m expecting the DVD from Amazon tomorrow, so maybe it’ll remind me of this virtual minstrel show.
Anyway it seems contradictory to say that it’s terrible that the only black guy is portrayed stereotypically, and on the other, say that it’s okay that the only virgin is portrayed stereotypically. Apatow takes both stereotypical characters and shades them into comedic types with whom we’re meant to sympathize. He does the same with the over-emotional, drunken, hot-tempered Paul Rudd character and the stoner, slacker, oversexed Rogan character. Like the other two, Jay shows unexpected warmth and depth at times, and that’s what makes them all so charming.
Again I can’t speak for Knocked Up, but it seems to me that 40-Y-O-V took a bunch of stereotypes and archetypes and tweaked them for our amusement. See also: comedy.
If you think that only black people talk that way, you’ve obviously never spent any time with lower-class white folks.
And you should thank your lucky stars.
Ah, so Steve Carell’s character WAS a blatant racial stereotype. Now I’m angry too! Grrr, Apatow! Shame!
I know. The only white character around a bunch of three-dimensional black characters was a dorky virgin. It’s so cliched.
Seemed to me he was a stereotype of a bouncer at a Hollywood club. “Bitches” isn’t exclusively a black slang term anymore. Hell, I didn’t even flinch at that.
The more I think about it, the more I think that “not, you know, for the earth” is a small, perfect comedy diamond. It says so much- his job versus his personal feelings, his need to backtrack over something offensive he said, his thoughts of what will appeal to a “real woman”, it’s all in there.
I loved that scene.
I know, I’m chuckling just thinking about it. I mean, he’s being straight with Debbie, telling her that he can’t let her in because she’s too old, while reassuring her that he’d still “tear that ass up” himself. If memory serves, she gets a little teary-eyed in gratitude at that. I died laughing because I uncomfortably related from Debbie’s point-of-view, being of a certain age myself.
What does that even mean? Don’t you think Carell’s character was a white guy nerd stereotype? What about Seth Rogen’s pervy metal dude? And Paul Rudd’s stalkerish loser ex-boyfriend? I think Apatow’s writing takes these characters (including Jay) that could have been cardboard cut-out one-note characters and makes me care about them. Really, the movie could have, and by rights should have, sucked because of the easily stereotyped character tropes ostensibly employed in the movie. It’s a tribute to Apatow’s writing that I liked and cared about them all.
Maybe I’m wrong about this, but the character of Jay easily could have been white, with the exception of the scene were he faces off with the black customer at the end, which was an interaction specifically about his race. The rest of the character did not seem that race-specific to me. I know plenty of white guys who use the word “bitches.” That is not just a black slang word anymore, if it ever was.
But it’s a white stereotype, the nerdy, action figure collecting virgin. Why is that OK?
The character does not stand out as a racial stereotype when you have plenty of other characters who are of the same race that do not exhibit that behavior.
If there were other black characters in that movie alongside Jay who did not play the part of the loud-mouthed, slang-slinging, extra excitable macho man, then it would be more apparent that Jay’s race is incidental to his behavior. As it happens, he’s the only main black person in the movie and he embodies Black Man stereotypes without anyone else there for balance. Carrell is not comparable because the other two white guys are nothing like him, therefore it’s clear that race doesn’t have anything to do with his dorky ways.
If the movie was about a white dorky virgin with a bunch of non-dorky, non-virginal black friends, maybe this question would be on the mark. But because the movie is not about that, its not on the mark. The movie is about a geek, not a white geek.
I’d like to expand on this fact.
In the commentary, the cast members mention that Jay’s character was originally written as a white guy – an ex-frat boy type, who had knocked his girlfriend up and was now freaking out because of all the responsibility that entailed. Then the guy who actually played Jay came along and wowed them with his reading, and so he was cast.
Jay’s character doesn’t seem so much a black stereotype as it does a stereotype of guys in their twenties who are afraid to commit and/or of responsibility. The attitudes towards women and relationships that Jay has are just as prevalent among white men as they are black men.
There is that one scene, where Jay’s girlfriend shows up at the store after she finds his speed dating card. Andy covers for Jay, using some stereotypical black slang, and Jay’s girlfriend says something along the lines of, “You’re friends with a man who talks like this? Who talks about women like this? Why?” Jay replies along the lines of, “Baby, I don’t know why he’s this way. I just work with him.” That scene points out that Jay is aware that the way he acts is a front, a role that he adopts. His character isn’t just a stereotype; it’s three-dimensional.
Have you heard about the coffee?
Just finished listening to the commentary. Romany Malco (who plays Jay), read the script, and thought “why am I being considered for this role? This guy is a white, ex-frat boy who still hasn’t matured into adulthood. I could think of at least a dozen guys who could play this role better than I could.”
Secondly, a good deal of the “stereotypically black things” that were said by Jay were IMPROVISED by him. A good deal of the lines in this movie were improvised. So if you see any stereotyping going on in this movie, the only person you have to blame is the black guy responsible for the role. And given the fact that he’s black, and doesn’t have a problem saying what he’s saying, and clearly doesn’t take offense to any of the things coming out of his own mouth, I fail to see what the issue is.
What did you guys think about that one particular scene that pizzabrat and I have groused about? Was that just a coincidence, too? Just wondering. That exchange was piled on much too thick and it netted zero laughs for me, especially given that it didn’t really do anything for the storyline.
I have a hard time conceiving of a white frat guy being in that scene, but hey, maybe I’m just loony tunes.
I don’t remember feeling uncomfortable when watching any of the scenes with Jay. I loved the movie - I’m feeling a bit guilty that I didn’t find offense, since based on this thread I suppose I should have. I’ve been black for as long as I can remember (joke), and I was comfortable with the movie, so I suppose my opinions might be considered unenlightened by some.
Kevin Smith’s black characters have never bothered me at all. They seem as well written as any of the other characters in his films - some of them are hilarious.
I wonder how well anyone who hasn’t actually lived any particular experience can write about it. Since there’s no one model for any culture, one has to go by their personal interactions with any group.
So he admitted flat out that because he otherwise could bring nothing to the character pure talent-wise, he had to resort to “blacking-it-up” to stand out. That should make the problem apparent.
Nnnooo, that’s not how film-making works. Apatow is the director - he’s responsible for everything in the film. It was his job to say “No, this isn’t the place for a hackneyed, Hollywood black-guy shtick. We’re going for more familiar characters here, Romany. Try a more realistic approach. This is a man who, though is black, spends most of his time with white friends, too, so your characterization doesn’t really make sense.” Problem is that Apatow probably had the same attitude that a couple of you here do - that because the actor is black, he’s some distant, space-alien other who is completely off-limits to him as a white person. “I don’t get them so it’s not my place to tell him if he’s off the mark. They do what they do.” That’s what I mean by dismissive attitude.
Wow. I guess you’ve never heard of gangster rappers.
I didn’t find offense at Jay’s portrayal. Most of the time I found him funny. There were some things I simply was not impressed with, because I found them racially schticky and therefore lame.