Look, of course learning English provides a benefit, but it’s not a prerequisite.
When I was going to school, I had several friends who’s parents didn’t speak any english. They spoke Portugeuse or Mandarin at home. They were, naturally, required to attend school, like any other kids, and their integration into Canadian society has been just fine. (One is now a real estate agent and the other owns a computer store.) As far as I know, their parents are still monolingual.
Of course it’s perfectly reasonable to encourage people to learn the official language(s) of the place that they plan to reside in. What’s not reasonable is demanding that they do, and threatening to place their children in foster care if they don’t.
Nobody has called anyone a racist yet. Bigotry, in many forms is a far cry from racism.
Language would be included here.
As you can see, there is a huge gulf between the two. Would you rather I call you an ethnocentrist? If you like it, I will.
No, someone is demanding that they learn a language different from their own.
But that’s not what we’re talking about and the linked articles don’t give us the relevant information on either woman’s situation to determine what kind of visa they have, how long they’ve been here, Etc. A non-issue.
So, you can’t talk to your friend because she lives with her mom who doesn’t speak english? Come on.
Methinks your neighbor ought to review her hiring practices…
A fault of the school system and poor ESL curricula that aren’t planned for success. It’s rampant, but it has more to do with poor school administration than it does forcing immigrant parents to speak english.
No? Well, since that immigrant that speaks only their native tongue has immigrated here and is forced to take minimum-wage or less jobs, where people around her only speak the same language and where they are forced to work non-stop schedules, early and late shifts and multiple jobs to be able to take care of their families, I’d say it is asking quite a bit of them to take several hours out of every week for a year or two.
You’re right, but I also suspect that judges in whatever mythical country you’re referring to wouldn’t threaten to take away their children if they didn’t learn the official language of that country. Also, since English is spoken in pretty much every country in the world and often competes with the dominant language, and there are always english-speaking Ex-pats, I doubt it would be a problem.
For the last time, and please pay attention. It is not a requirement for residence in the United States of America under a visa to learn the fucking language. Before I waste any more breath on this part of the subject, please read above about the articles and the relevant information that is missing to make such an assertion.
Except that it isn’t some ridiculous arrogant attitude of indifference that leads most immigrants not to learn the language. Read above for some of the reasons why they do not learn the language.
See above.
I still don’t see anyone calling you a racist. Where you got another ridiculous idea like this I cannot figure out. You need not be male, nor white for the statement to be true. THere are enough bigots and assholes to treat immigrants like shit in any color, creed, religion and nationality in the US to go around.
“Making a better life for yourself”, does not necessarily mean learning the local language. It means leaving poverty, despair, cruelty, oppressive governments, absolutely zero chances for getting anywhere, and coming here where they can live a cleaner, more free lifestyle, make a little bit of money-even if they get treated like shit, paid under the table at less than minimum wage, and subject to conditions that while less harmful than their home country would be appalling to you or I.
Fuck yeah. You think I’m enraged by the attitudes shown here in this thread and by the judicial system in TN? Force birth control, or education down their throats and I’ll come unglued. Obviously it would be best for they and theirs, but once again, it is their prerogative to learn english, to get an education, or to use Birth Control. They are adults like you or I. They are even human.
This attitude isn’t a product of my politics, and this isn’t a product of my life, this is simply a product of my education. I’m not trying to patronize you, but if you haven’t studied as extensively about immigrants as I have, let me know if you want to and I can supply a goodly amount of reference materials on immigrants, immigration and the United States. It truly is an eye-opener.
We all think, ney, know, that her life would be greatly improved by learning rudimentary english skills. What we disagree on is whether it is the judge’s place, or even the government at all, to force her to learn the language. It just isn’t.
Harmless, non-drunk-driving, non-children-endangering drunks would have their lives greatly improved if they would clean up. Would it be acceptable for a judge to drag them into court without offense and force them to go to treatment? No.
My life would be vastly improved if I would just fucking quit smoking. Would that make it ok for a judge to threaten to take my children away from me if I wasn’t endangering their lives by huffing it up in the house, or in my car? No.(note, I have no children, and would never subject them to my habit. I don’t even smoke in my house or my car. In fact, I hope that when the times comes, I’ll do the wise thing and quit)
People with diabetes who miss appointments should be judicially required to go to their doctor’s appointments now?
Maybe you’ll see my point, maybe not, but it seems pretty damned clear to me.
Christ on a cracker, get a grip! Nobody here has claimed that non-citizens are legally required to learn English. Nor is that even the topic of debate. Some have simply had the temerity to assert that they should, which you have presented no arguments against. I guess if you can’t win the real debate, construct a fake debate with an imaginary opponent, right?
The arrogance just drips off you, doesn’t it? Why don’t you come down from Olympus and share some of these tidbits of data that have led you to your enthusiasm for mass immigration? In particular, I’m interested in any morsels of objective data that demonstrate that 20 million illegal immigrants and an open border are good for the United States.
Let me share something with you, you foul-smelling, purulent carbuncle, when I was young and naive and full of “education” but no experience, I thought immigration was great, too. Citizenship? Nationality? Who cares? We’re all human beings, right? Who are we to say this side of the border is ours and not yours?
Then I went out into the real world. I married into an immigrant family that couldn’t even communicate with each other because the parents and kids weren’t fluent in the same language. I entered a professional field in which I have the pleasure of being discriminated against because I’m not an “underrepresented minority” or an immigrant, even though I was often the only person in my department who didn’t come from one of those groups. And I moved into a part of the country where people have no concept of “community”, because they’ve never lived in one, only in an area with a bunch of people who don’t fucking understand each other. Why do you think people in big American cities are rude and standoffish? It’s because the next guy you walk past on the street probably doesn’t understand your language, has contempt for your religion, and is offended by your way of life. And you by his.
Grow the hell up. People who come to this country and willfully resist learning English can never become citizens. And someone who has no interest in eventually becoming a citizen should go home on the next bus. We have enough problems in this country without having to deal with a freaking Tower of Babel.
How comes it then that there are large multicultural cities where people aren’t rude and standoffish? Could it be because it’s possible to coexist without feeling contempt for other cultures, or being offended by other people’s mere existence?
It’s not an ivory tower ideal, man. I’ve seen it up close.
“Hispanic” is an English word conjured up by a bunch of white guys. “Latino” is a Spanish word conjured up by the people who actually speak Spanish-derived languages. Describing someone by their country of origin is always better, of course, but Latino/a is fast becoming the preferred term. Here’s a decent article about word usage.
Christ! Six months of study for a vacation? I appreciate the enthusiasm, but isn’t that a bit of overkill? I moved straight into a foreign country for five years without boning up on the language beforehand (you try learning Hungarian in a few months. I lived there five years, immersed in the culture, and I still have only very basic language skills. At any rate, I never felt at much of a disadvantage there.) While I do speak two languages fluently and another four or five well enough to be understood, I hardly think it’s reasonable to expect someone to study up on the language before moving to country. The best (and only good way, IMHO) to learn a language is to live in it. Trial by fire, and all that.
Incorrect. There is no requirement to speak a single word of English to immigrate legally to the U.S., nor to become a lawful permanent resident. And there is no requirement to naturalize in order to live indefinitely in the U.S. as a permanent resident. In most cases, in order to become a naturalized citizen, applicants have to demonstrate a basic knowledge of English.
I’m 36 years old and am full of both education and experience; I speak 4 languages (OK 3.5, anyway) and have worked with immigrants for the past 15 years, basically my entire career, in refugee job placement, as a court interpreter, and currently preparing work visa documentation for employees of one of the largest businesses in the world.
Believe me, I’m all for immigrants learning English; I’m all for everyone learning multiple languages. I was all for the ethnic Slavs who migrated to the Baltics and Central Asia learning the local languages. I think it’s a national tragedy that most American kids don’t have the opportunity to study a foreign language until high school, if at all, and rarely have the opportunity to be immersed in one.
The vast majority of immigrants learn enough English to function; obviously, the level they achieve depends on a number of factors, including their educational background before they immigrated. Of the former Soviets my nonprofit agency placed in jobs 15 years ago, the overwhelming majority of adults had at least a bachelor’s degree, and half of those had graduate degrees. Now they are professionals who can speak fluent (if heavily accented) English, and a fair chunk of them are in higher-level jobs and making more money than I am. The same isn’t necessarily true of, say, the people served by the Vietnamese Association; we had a brainstorming meeting with them once on how to keep people off public assistance, and one counselor there pithily pointed out, “how are you supposed to find a job in Chicago for an illiterate rice farmer?”
This poor 18-year-old’s prospects are rather more complicated than those of a master’s degreed computer programmer from the FSU; what do you think her level of literacy is in her native language? And if my two-parent families had a hard time juggling overlapping work shifts and child care, with all the support services provided in a major multicultural city by the agency with the longest record of refugee support services in the U.S. providing babysitting, vocational counseling and training, and free ESL classes within walking distance, how is one lone teenager supposed to manage it? She may learn functional English eventually, and she may even become a fluent literate English speaker, but the chances of her doing it that quickly and with the level of support available in a small town are slim.
Have you even read some of the stuff being posted by people of your opinion in this thread? I’d say you were wrong on just about all accounts.
Actually, as the quoted portion indicates, I was not being arrogant, just explaining myself. I even took extra precautions to ensure that I wasn’t misunderstood or came off as a patronizing ass. You, OTOH, are making sure to behave like an ass at every possible opportunity.
Point? I’m still searching for your point, except to say that you were a naive asslicker at one point with rose-colored lenses. I guaran-fuckin-tee you I am not some hippy dippy naive moron like you were or imply that I am. Wasted invective…
I’m pretty sure you’re mistaken about this. I think people are standoffish and rude because Americans, by and large act like arrogant, self-important pricks who go about their daily tasks as if their fellow man-be he black, white, Latino, Catholic, Jewish or Muslim-simply doesn’t exist.
People on your side of the fence keep saying that people on my side need to grow up, and you keep insulting people. You’re making a huuuuuuuuuuuge impact on myself and my opinion, I tell you. I really wish we could load all of the self-important pricks like yourself onto that next bus out of the country instead of the non-native-tongue-speakers. On the whole, they tend to be the more human of the two.
In the 2000 Census, Lebanon had a population of 20,235. If 1200 of them are foreign born, it’s probably safe to say that probably 1,000 of them speak Spanish. That would not be unreasonable. Then consider that Tennessee schools require two years of a foreign language for a high school diploma. That adds a few American born citizens that can converse a little in Spanish. It’s not quite so bad as 1 in 50.
So those 400 are folks whose primary language is Mixteco. I suppose it’s reasonable to assume that there are some people there who have picked up a bit of Mixteco as a second language.
On closer reading, I see that the Mixteco-speaker is another of Tatum’s cases, from October. The most recent woman’s language is unspecified, but it seems likely that it’s Spanish.
I think a lot of people find this issue a “hot button” because they see that if the opposite were to happen, they would not do like the immigrants.
Say for whatever reason conditions got so awful in the U.S. that I wanted out. I choose to go to France and live there for the rest of my life. The first thing I would want to do is learn French and learn it well and live among other French people. I think it would be disrespectful to France and arrogant on my part to want to move to France, find other English speaking immigrants from America, and try to set up our own “Little U.S.A.” That’s the absolute last thing I would want to do. And I wouldn’t blame the French for resenting me for trying to do it.
I haven’t seen anything in this story that suggests that’s what the women in question have done. It takes considerable time and effort to learn a new language under the best of circumstances. They aren’t in the best of circumstances, and you have no idea how much time they’ve had to learn English, nor how much effort they’ve devoted to it.
Now we get to the real motivation. You hate Americans, probably because you’re some kind of a misfit, and your solution is to ruin the American way of life by importing millions of foreigners. I ran into your type when I was working overseas - Americans who never quite fit in wherever it was they came from, who were stringing together gig after gig in hopes of never having to go home. At least we know what’s making you tick now.
You started with the insults, scrotumswoggler. Don’t dish it out if you can’t take it.
I’m surprised you even acknowledge there’s such a thing as a “native tongue”. Maybe there’s hope for you yet, but probably not.
The party is just about over for mass immigration. Enjoy it while you can. The latch is going back on the door, and the hypocrisy and bullshit is going to stop. This is one nation, not a multitude of “diverse communities”.
By the way, 89% of Hispanics agree that immigrants should learn English if they plan to live and work in the U.S. That only leaves hardcore ethnics and white-guilt flakes like you on the wrong side of the issue.
Huh? What the fuck are you on? I hate Americans? I’m a misfit? I guess you read me right… :rolleyes:
I’d say I love America and Americans even more than you because I hold us to a higher standard than you seem to.
Definitely put the pipe down. Now you’re making up new words in some sophomoric(sophomoronic in this case), attempt to what, better me? Well, I’m not sure what you aim to get out of it, but keep it up. You look like a silly tit, and more silly with every post…
…and you’re still an idiot, and there’s obviously no hope for you.
And then Americans can make tax-free money under the minimum wage, with no benefits, no permanent housing, and pick their own fruits and vegetables, clean their own hotel rooms and cars. It’ll be the ultimate! WooHoo!
Put down the pipe, freak.
By the way, 89% of Hispanics agree that immigrants should learn English if they plan to live and work in the U.S. That only leaves hardcore ethnics and white-guilt flakes like you on the wrong side of the issue.
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“white-guilt flakes” Has a nice ring to it. Maybe you can market your idea for a new “downy” flake with the General Mills Corporation. I’m sure they need new blood in their cereal marketing department.
BTW, I’m on the right side of this issue(the “American” one), and I wouldn’t consider myself a white guilter, or a flake, so fuck yourself sideways with a serving of Spanish and a side dish of Farsi.
Why should we automatically assume that this woman has no plans to EVER learn to speak English? Or even that massive quantities of immigrants have no desire to learn to speak the default language of their new home? All you can assume is that there are growing numbers of immigrants who don’t speak English YET.
We have plenty of historical evidence from our great-grandparents that this is a problem that will resolve itself in a single generation. We know that it is of great benefit for anyone who lives here to be able to read, write and converse in English–which provides enough of an impetus to most immigrants to learn as quickly as they can given their inherent abilities.
What I don’t understand is the attitude that somehow all these “ignorant foreigners” are trying to undermine the fabric of our own American existance. That somehow English will cease to be the dominant language and that we’ll wake up one day and it will be all Spanish, all the time. If that didn’t happen with the waves of German, Polish, Russian, Italian, etc. etc., etc., then why do we have our panties in a twist now?
Because some people are having serious ego problems as Americans. How that is related to “furriners”, I don’t know as it is obviously a phenomena I don’t encounter often where I live.
I was attending graduate school at the time. We were required to take a foreign language class so I chose Spanish.
I agree with Hampshire’s post. If you’re going to live somewhere else for a prolonged period why is such awful thing for that country to require you to study the language?
Because someone VOLUNTARILY moved to another country where that other language is spoken. That does not equal bigotry or enthocentrism.
Her mother speaks Bulgarian so if my friend isn’t home we can’t communicate.
And how is working so hard you can’t spare a few hours a week to further your education “getting a better life?” And how do you expect someone to break away from minimum wage jobs if they don’t learn English?
Part of the reason wages at the bottom haven’t kept pace with inflation is because some people have no problem letting employers import workers they can treat like shit.
Where has anyone (including me) agreed with the judge’s threat? It still doesn’t negate the fact that the woman would be better off if she learned English.
If you’re planning to be here more than a year it ought to be. Again that is neither bigotry nor ethnocentrism.
If you have permanently moved to the US for the rest of your life, it is somewhat arrogant not to learn basic English.
Oh wow. You wrote the following nasty screed to me. If this is not an accusation of racism, what the heck is?
Of course it means learning the language. You really think otherwise? What if someone wants to leave that creepy job or the ethnic enclave?
What makes you think being poor in the US doesn’t mean you won’t be subject to despair or cruelty or oppressive local governments? Being poor in America often means living in substandard and unsafe housing in crime filled neighborhoods with few amenities and terrible schools that don’t exactly encourage upward mobility.
And no one has said immigrants aren’t human or even agreed with the judge’s decisions on birth control or his threat to take her children away. But to pretend that it’s not in our best interests to do everything possible to make sure immigrants learn English so they don’t primarily get locked into ethnic ghettos or jobs where they get screwed over and have no rights is absurd.
Your opinion, your experience. I grew up in several ethnic neighborhoods in NYC and I don’t agree with your conclusions. Contrary to your assertions it doesn’t make me into a bigot, racist or ethnocentrist.
I won’t waste my time on a line-by-line with you. I will, however, address one part where you seem to be confused:
That is a screed against your arrogant attitude. Not racism. If you’re going to hold such unpopular viewpoints, you’d better be a bit less sensitive when people call you to the table on account of them. Simply because you’ve got a streak of bigotry in you doesn’t make you a racist or even a bad person. Just a bigot(please re-read definition), and in this case, an arrogant one. Like it or not, your difference of opinion on an immigrant’s or a guest worker’s use of their home language would seem to make you “One who is strongly partial to one’s own group**[culture, which would include language], religion, race, or politics and is intolerant[your intolerance has shown through in some of your commentary regarding immigrants having to leave because they don’t want to speak english]** of those who differ”.
You don’t like them not speaking english, you want them to thumb under and bend to the will of the majority or lose their children or catch the first bus out of Dodge. That’s fine, but be prepared to accept criticism from people who disagree with you without putting words like racism in their mouths.
