Judging vs Condoning vs Interpretation....Another Christian Debate

Great Debates
61

You know, I read this last night, and I thought to myself that you had a very good point here…but I also thought that there is just something WRONG about it. So I decided to sleep on it, and pray on it, so maybe I could figure out WHAT it was that was wrong.

Here is what I came up with, or the explanation the God sent me…[sub]I incline to the latter, but I know you don’t necessarily agree, so…[/sub]

I thought about Hitler, who slaughtered…what, six million people? More, I think…six million Jewish people and also a huge amount of Homosexual people and Romany people…I am uncertain of that number.

So, when all of this was first developing in Germany, I wonder how many people heard some of this stuff while it was just an idea (possibly a “joke” told in the break room at work, possibly a racist remark told at dinner with friends.) And how many people thought to themselves “that is WRONG, and unGodly, and…well, WRONG…but it isn’t really HURTING anyone for that person to have that attitude, so I am not going to judge them by saying anything.”

I just wonder…if more people who recognized that these things were WRONG and RACIST had SAID something to the people involved, would things maybe have turned out differently? I don’t know, probably not. But I DO know that if they DIDN’T say something, they WERE condoning something that ended up being a heinous and horrible and abhorrent slaughter of human beings.

Well, it ISN’t. But it IS important to me that I not sit there and keep my mouth shut when I believe they are spreading acceptance of something I believe is WRONG. I don’t want to sit in judgement on ANYONE, but I also don’t want to sit there and APPROVE anything like that.

Yes, that one isn’t at issue. I wouldn’t do anything I didn’t believe was RIGHT…and I KNOW I am too imperfect to claim that I have always been correct in my OWN life on this one…I have sinned right along with anyone else. Sometimes with self-justification that I now see was wrong.

Because, as I said above, sometimes it is necessary to make it clear that what they believe has the potential to HURT someone else. And I am not going allow anyone to think that hurting someone else is FINE with me.

BTW, as I type this, I realize that this isn’t necessarily even a CHRISTIAN issue. It is a moral and ethical and HEART issue. I started this thread to try to figure out some fine lines between judging and condoning. But in reality, it doesn’t matter WHAT faith you hold. Or DON’T hold. The issue applies anyway.

Absolutely. And if I felt judgmental toward someone, that would be a sin, even if I didn’t speak it. Of course, speaking it would be anOTHER sin, because then I would be not only judging, them, I would be NOT loving my neighbor in a more public way.

Well, I never claimed to have a handle on all this, hon, THAT is what I am exploring here. But yes…I guess I have and DO judge others. Obviously this is an area in my Christian life that needs work, and I am working on it. Actually, in many ways this thread is an example of me trying to work on it.

The answer to THAT is easy. I am ** NO ONE** in any position to judge ANYONE else.

Yes, of course we have the moral, ethical and BIBLICAL duty to step in when someone is doing direct harm to another. I think I made it clear that I believe that earlier.

Well, see my earlier comments about the Hitler situation. If I had been there, saw the beginnings of what later happened and didn’t SAY I thought it was wrong, then I was CONDONING an attitude that later caused the death of however million people.

I wonder…how would I feel if I was a friend of the people who killed Matthew Shepard, and I knew they held racist attitudes toward homosexuals that they hadn’t yet acted on, and I hadn’t told them how wrong I thought it was that they felt that way? And then they went and KILLED that young man…how would I feel? I would feel like I condoned an attitude that later resulted in a death. THAT’S how I would feel. I would feel like a piece of dirt. Maybe I would even feel like I had some responsibility for what happened.

I don’t ever want to BE there, Stoid.

I’m trying. And part of being a good example is NOT sitting around with a smile on my face, or a blank face, or even an appalled face, when someone is doing or saying something that I think has great potential for DIRECT harm in the future.

I’m not really clear on whether or not these are real questions you are asking me, or if you are just poking me with a stick. But in any case, you are truly helping me to clarify my thinking on this, if not to help me figure out exactly how to DEAL with it. But in any case, you ARE helping me and I thank you.

My Love,

Cheri

62

Stoid, people’s opinions of when it’s right and when wrong to “meddle” are going to vary, but there’s one answer I think all of us, regardless of belief system, can agree on, or we wouldn’t be here in GD at all:

There’s nothing more obvious in the world than that my approach to such meddling is going to differ greatly from yours on the one hand and His4Ever’s on the other. But we’re all committed to trying to make a difference in the problems we see in the world around us.

'Zat any help?

63

Poking you with a stick? I’m giggling, that’s a funny image.

I’m poking you cuz you asked to be poked, sorta. You are grappling with the question of how to be a force for good in the world * without * judging others. It is truly a conundrum, and my own opinion is that you cannot really do both, at least not completely or perfectly. You must and do judge others, as do we all, if for no other reason than to determine what IS good. But when does judging others become the hypocrisy which Jesus was admonishing his followers to avoid?

We must each decide for ourselves. Fortunately, I am not a Christian so “judge not” is optional for me, and yet I work more all the time to judge, if not “not”, then less. But if people around me are spouting bigotry and hate, I don’t even hesitate to call 'em on it.

64

I don’t think it’s accurate to equate homosexual and black in this instance. Homosexuality is just the orientation of one’s attraction, it is value-neutral. Black skin, when it is seen, is a condition that some people find deeply repugnant.

65

Whatever, Sdraw, knock yourself out.

66

Stoid, you claim that homosexuality isn’t value neutral, which it clearly is, because some people have a problem with it, a big problem. A lot of people also have a huge problem with black people. So does that also mean that black skin is not value neutral?

67

Lemme 'splain like this: One is either black or not, there is no action and no choice involved. It is a physical condition that involves no act of any kind. There are no ethics, morals, values or other choices of any kind involved in being black. It is therefore value-neutral.

Being homosexual in and of itself is the same. It is what it is, you cannot help what floats your boat, and if your same sex makes you all hot and bothered, you have no choice in it.

What you DO have choice about is how you deal with it. Depending on your upbringing and your religion and whatever the hell else, you can either act on it or not act on it. That is a choice that involves your values, ethics, morals. Therefore it is not value-neutral.

The vast majority of homosexuals, and I’d venture to say pretty much ALL homosexuals who are out are actively practicing their sexual preference. So when homophobes hate/fear them, they are almost guaranteed to be hating and fearing people who are DOING something that they believe is wrong, they are not hating them for what they ARE, which is the distinction that was being drawn. (Now, whether it IS wrong or not is obviously a matter of opinion. I happen to think it isn’t. But other people think it is. I understand this. I am sad that it is true, but I get it.) This is shown in the way that some religious groups embrace celibate gays.
I will take the next step (and PLEASE don’t anyone jump on this and flip out, read it carefully.) and compare homosexuality to pedophilia in this way: none of us has any control whatsoever over what excites us sexually. It is a response of our nervous system that has pretty much nothing to do with us and the choices we make. In the case of true pedophiles, it is a fact * beyond their control * that they are sexually excited by children. So to hate them for that is actually unfair, they can’t do anything about it.

However, if they ACT on it, it is a completely different kettle of fish.

Get it?

68

Stoid - I will take the next step (and PLEASE don’t anyone jump on this and flip out, read it carefully.) and compare homosexuality to pedophilia in this way: none of us has any control whatsoever over what excites us sexually. It is a response of our nervous system that has pretty much nothing to do with us and the choices we make. In the case of true pedophiles, it is a fact beyond their control that they are sexually excited by children. So to hate them for that is actually unfair, they can’t do anything about it.

I understand the distinction you make. However, with pedophilia isn’t there a pathology requiring treatment? Are you saying that pedophiles can’t be treated?

69

Yes, I am saying pedophiles cannot be treated. The best you can hope for with a pedophile is to prevent them from acting on their feelings, you cannot change the way they feel any more than you can change the way homosexuals feel.

70

In a covering move, let me add: any more than you can change the way heterosexuals feel. Or the way transvestities feel. Or submissives or dominants. Blah blah blah. What turns you on turns you on.

And it is only a “pathology” because we have elected to label it as same. In some cultures it is not.

71

I thought most if not all pedophiles had been molested themselves. This makes me believe that these desires they end up with are caused by some external factor.

72

That may be true in many cases, but what of it? I would venture to say that most sexual preferences are influenced by experiences in early life. It doesn’t alter the way we feel, does it?

I don’t know why I like tall, skinny men, and I don’t care. I can assure you, however, that nothing you could do would make me stop finding them attractive.

73

This is a tough question. I think, for MY purposes, I will use a different example. Mostly because it is a real one to me, not because I know anyone who is involved with this, but because I cannot comprehend how ANY Christian could feel that they are doing the will of God in these next examples.

And apparently, some people DO.

I am talking about people who bomb abortion clinics, kill Doctors who perform abortions; people who think that it is RIGHT and JUST to gay bash and in the worst case scenario…people who support things like the killing of Matthew Shepard. And the picketing of his memorial service holding awful, horrible, HATEFUL signs.

If I knew anyone who thought that any of this was a RIGHT thing to do, I would try to talk to them about it…I would try to get them to see why I felt it was NOT Biblical for them to DO these things. I would try to bring all of the Scriptures that I could find to this discussion, and ask them to explain to me HOW what they were doing was God’s will. I would question whether or not anyone who truly believed in the Bible could reject so totally the commandment to “Love thy neighbor.” I would ask them to show me where in the Scripture they received the mandate from God to DO these things.

I am fairly certain that nothing I said would make a difference to them, but at least I might have planted a seed…maybe they would at least THINK about it. Maybe the Holy Spirit would use that seed to convict them.

So then, of course, I would cry. Because it breaks my heart that people could or WOULD do these things in the name of Christ.

I would ALSO, of course, report them to the authorities.

But you know, I have difficulty believing that these people truly have Christ in their heart. I know that it is not MY place to judge that, but…well, then I am obviously sinning here…because it is my feeling that no one with Christ within them could DO these things. It is one thing to tell those you believe are sinning that they are sinning by doing…whatever. (I DO think that is a sin, the sin of judgment…see previous discussion on the subject.) But it is quite another to DO something about it, and when you do harm to others you move out of the realm of the heart and into the realm of the physical. At that point they have disobeyed both God’s laws…and Man’s laws.

So if someone truly believes they are doing to will of God and it is something clearly (to me) against the Scriptures?

A better Christian than me would probably say that you should NEVER give up trying to make them understand where they are in error. I am afraid that I would feel more like busting them in the chops.

No problem, I am just sorry I can’t come up with a better answer for you. I am muddling through things the best I can, and it’ll NEVER happen that I will be any kind of authority on God, or His perfect love and justice.

Maybe some of the other more learned Christians on the board will have a better answer for you than I.

74

You’re right. Just don’t poke TOO hard, okay? I bruise easily. :slight_smile:

That is exactly what I am trying to do, and believe me…your input has been extremely helpful, for which I thank you.

Me either, and I guess that is what I am trying to determine…where is that line between NOT judging someone and condoning something. Of COURSE whatever it is that the behaviour or belief we are talking about makes a difference in how you decide in that particular situation.

75

I agree that our sexuality identity is shaped by a variety of factors. However, core sexual preferences would emerge regardless of a particular set of experiences or environmental factors.

I think pedophelia exists outside of the core. I think a pedophile has somehow missed the sexual identity core. Something has mis-fired. We, imho, have no choice about preferences, desires, feelings, that come from the core of our sexual self.

76

I think that a discussion about “original sin”, which is what I think this would turn into if I answered you here, should be a whole 'nother thread.

And in such a thread I would be entirely out of my depth. I will therefore leave this question to someone more well versed in theology than I am.

I am not ignoring you, nor do I think that this isn’t a valid question. I just don’t know how to answer you without getting myself into a whole mess. It is what I believe, but I can’t explain it. I don’t have the answer. Sorry.

77

Bullshit. Go read the Gaybashing thread. I don’t think you’ll find a single incident in there that occurred while anyone was having sex.

78

Stoid, if I got taken to task for “Love the Christian, hate Christianity,” surely you can see it is just as ridiculous as “love the sinner, hate the sin,” yes?

Esprix

79

No, ** Exprix, ** I don’t agree. But then, I never took you to task for the Christian position because I agree with it.

Let’s take the sinner/sin thing to it’s extreme… Many, if not most murderers have people in their lives who love them. Siblings, children, parents. Do you think those people love the act their loved one has committed? Of course not. They hate and despise and recoil from that act, yet continue to love the person who committed it.

Well, I think it is equally possible for someone to love you, Esprix, but hate the fact that you engage in homosexual acts.

This whole thing seems kinda unreasonable on your (as “The Gay Guy”) part. “Love everything about me or don’t love me at all.” huh? Since when? Certainly you can insist that you be left alone on the subject by anyone who claims to love you, but you cannot reasonably insist that they love your homosexual activity, nor can you reasonably declare that they do not truly love you if they don’t love your homosexual activity, because you cannot tell someone else how they feel, that’s just silly.

80

You’re still missing the point, Stoid. Homosexuals are homo because we engage in “homosexual acts”. We only have homosex because we are homosexual. We’re homos even when we’re not having sex. We are homos when we are buying groceries. We are homos when we driving in our car, or posting on the SDMB, or even gasp sitting in the church pew. We are more than who we have sex with. To hate homosexuality, is to hate who we are.