I left out a “not”. It should read:
Homosexuals are not homo because we engage …
Excellent point, Homebrew.
As someone who was tarred with the “gay” brush in junior high, I can very much sympathize with the point that discrimination is based on perceived identity, not on actions. Perhaps the classic case is Kirkland, whose rage all but the extreme newbies among us are familiar with, but who stated that he is a virgin, and hence by Stoid’s definition not a homosexual at all. Didn’t stop people from hating and hurting him, though.
I know it wasn’t your intention, but equating acts of love between people of the same sex and murder is, putting it mildly, distasteful. I do understand the point you’re trying to make, however, but I obviously disagree with it.
It’s perfectly reasonable - Homebrew and Polycarp just gave you some examples.
Let’s put it this way - in my “Love the Christian, hate Christianity” thread, I posed the question to see if it measured up to the “love the homosexual, hate homosexuality” (or homosexual acts, depending on who you talk to). It didn’t - Christians found it just as insulting, as they consider their religious beliefs as integral to the core of their being as sexual orientation is. The one difference, one might argue, is that beliefs are chosen - your sexual orientation isn’t. Looking at it that way, I see that as making “love the sinner, hate the sin” even more inherently insulting.
Furthermore, it says quite clearly to me, “I hate whom you love,” or, more accurately, “I hate that you love.” How can this not be insulting? And how can this be any more contrary to the message of love that Jesus taught? It’s specious at best.
Esprix
** Homebrew, ** you missed the point that I made earlier. I’m not saying that people don’t hate homosexuals for simply * being * homosexual, obviously they do. (And that applies to what you are saying as well, ** Polycarp. ** ) Obviously people will and do despise the whole of a person because of that one aspect of who they are, that is not in dispute.
What I am contending is that it is possible to hate an aspect of someone * without* hating the whole of who they are. And I’m quite sure that your homosexuality has nothing at all to do with many other aspects of you. I’ve had and have a whole bunch of gay friends in my life and they were all sorts of things besides gay. You can say, with some justification, that your gayness affects other parts of your personality, but the person who has a problem with your homosexuality but still loves you is not thinking about that. They are thinking about your sex life, and it weirds them out. Period.
You are certainly entitled to be insulted by it if you like, and I can understand why you would be. However, the fact that you are insulted does not * change the emotional experience of the person doing the loving and hating. *
All I’ve been trying to say, is that it is not up to anyone but the person who is feeling their feelings to say what those feelings are. No one else is in a position to state what is true or not true for anyone else when it comes to their feelings. And I find it perfectly easy to believe that someone who has been brought up to believe that homosexuality is a sin, but who has lived in the real world and known real homosexuals, and gotten other information, could continue to recoil from the practice of homosexuality, but feel real love and compassion and tenderness towards a homosexual.
How homosexuals feel about that is not the point I am addressing.
Oh, and ** Esprix, ** I knew you wouldn’t like the murderer analogy, but I also knew you’d know what I was getting at. And after all, in some people’s (fucked up) heads, the two are not so far apart, and those are the people we are talking about.
Stoid, you’re right - we can feel deeply, deeply insulted, but they will feel what they will feel, and we have neither control nor responsibility for that. However, we do see it as a justification or rationalization for deep down being a bigot - that’s why we see it as specious.
Esprix
There are certain aspects of a person you cannot separate from who they are as a whole, that if you condemn, you condemn the entire person as a whole – their race, their gender, their sexuality, their religion, etc. The core, defining traits that are the source of all others.
Not true in the least. It impacts and alters all other traits of who I am (I know this comment wasn’t directly addressed to me, but I will respond because I’m in a position to know).
Bigotry does not have to be conscious.
They have no right to be wierded out. Or concerne dwith it at all.
If what feels like love to them feels like hate to the one they’re deailing with, then they are hateful, and just unaware of reality. What matters is not intent, never intent, but the impact their opinions and actions have.
How the one being persecuted, even “in love,” feels about the situation is all that ever matters.
How can you say that, and in the same post say this:
You want it both ways. “My sexuality is all that I am” and “My sexuality is none of your concern”. Sorry, doesn’t work.
If you are going to make who you are be so closely associated with your sex life, then you can’t object when people react to it. And everyone absolutely has the right to feel however they damn well wanna. And you do not have the right to demand that anyone feel anything.
Crap crap crap crap. Sorry to seem harsh but I’m just not buying it. You don’t get to decide what is going on with other people’s emotions. You are not the arbiter of everybody’s reality. Intention absolutely does matter.
And much more importantly, the only person whose feelings and actions you are responsible for is your own, and the same thing applies to everyone, including the hypothetical lover/hater person we are talking about. They are not responsible for your feelings, you are. You can elect to be offended, you can feel the way YOU feel. But you can’t then decide what is true for someone else. And the fact that you cannot imagine how someone could be offended your sexual practices but not by anything else about you is actually your limitation, not theirs. In cases where this is the reality, I’d give 'em props for getting that far, in NOT letting their problem with the sexuality make them unable to see past it.
Who is being persecuted (anywhere other than in their own head)? I’m telling you that you are (hypothetically) loved, and you wanna obsess about the fact that the person loving you doesn’t love your sexuality. Get over it already. Take the love where you can find it.
It’s a damn shame that people can’t be completely loving, accepting, and completely lacking in judgment, with that I shall absolutely agree. But on the planet I’m living on, where people are imperfect, judgmental, ignorant and fearful, every step towards love and away from hate, however imperfect, is to be lauded as a positive one.
I never said “my sexuality is all that I am.” A person’s sexuality is core to their being, but it is not the only thing core to their being. And I never said that my sexuality is none of your business – but my sex life most certainly is. Being a homosexual has nothing to do with sex.
If they, through their gay-hating, hurt my feelings, that is their fault. If they cannot accept and love a person’s gayness then they cannot truly love that person, for the two cannot be separated.
Lovely, blame the victim.
Where did I say anything about sexual practices?
Give them props for only being a partial bigot? Never. You either have problems with the fact that gay people exist, and are a bigot, or you have no problems with gay people, and you are a good person. Half a bigot is still a bigot.
The gay person who is not being loved fully and completely by the “loving” person who spits upon a key aspect of the person they reputedly love.
If you can’t love the core traits of my person, then you do not love me. You only think you do.
Love is not in such short supply in this world that one must associate with hateful bigots who despise core facets of one’s being.
So then why did you say earlier:
Which is it?
YOU are the one so closely associating us with our sex lives. I, as well as others, have told you repeatedly that being gay is not simply about who I have sex with. Are you only straight when you are having sex with a man?
We’re not demanding that you love us. But if you don’t, don’t be surprised if we surmise you’re a bigot. And don’t call hate by the name of “love”.
What kind of madness is this drivel? If someone cannot get past their own bigotry, how is that my fault?
Now you are making no sense at all, which calls into serious question the rest of your points.
Nope. Yours. You choose to be hurt. This is always true, but it’s true times 5 if they are coming from a place of fundamental love.
So you keep saying. Doesn’t make it true.
If you want to * play *the victim, that’s your decision.
Again, you saying it doesn’t make it so. You don’t get to decide, remember? You are fully informed and totally responsible for you, and only you.( Not to mention the fact that you are the one making the big fat leap from viewing homosexual activity as sinful to “having problems with the fact that gay people exist.” It’s easy to knock over your own strawman, as we all know.)
Since you insist on going on and on and on about how core this is and how one cannot love you without loving your gayness, AND your gayness has NOTHING to do with sex…care to enlighten me about what it is? What is your homosexuality that is so very core to who you are, if it is not, at bottom, simply the fact that you are romantically and sexually attracted to persons of your same sex? And if you will concede that that is what it is, what does that have to do with everything else about you? Don’t just say it does, explain it. Support your contention with examples.
That’s certainly the only time it applies to my life or means anything.
See my previous post and my question. Please answer it.
Are you married, Stoid? That is related to your heterosexuality? Do you have picture of your husband (or boyfriend) on your desk at work? That is related to your heterosexuality. If you talk to your friends and say “my husband and I went to Mexico on our honeymoon”, then you’re talking about your heterosexuality.
You heterosexuality matters when you or your spouse can put the other one on his/her insurance at work, or even invite the other to work functions without worrying about getting fired for it.
Do you always feel free to walk down the street holding hands with your partner? Well, guess what, that’s an effect of being heterosexual.
Stoid, it is clear you don’t understand, and are probably incapable of understanding, what it is to be homosexual. It’s easy to be heterosexual. Yes, your sexuality defines you, but it does so in a way that makes you normal. You do the normal things, you like the normal things. You’re just another part of society. A gay person’s sexuality does exactly the opposite, it constantly alienates us, places us on the outside, makes us “less” in the eyes of the world. And it has nothing to do with sex. Not one damn thing. Because sexuality is about orientation, attraction and self identification. Sex is just one form of expression of it.
I’ve tried to explain it, Homebrew’s tried to explain it – your sexual orientation has little to nothing to do with sex. I am just as gay when I’m at the grocery store as when I’m having sex. I could never have sex, ever again, and I’d be just as gay for the rest of my life as I am now.
My take is that homosexuality comes from the core and is a fundamental part of a person’s identity. In my opinion it should not be the focal point or a defining point. Just like a person that is right-handed does not go through life focusing on this orientation, nor should they seek the approval of others. It would be so very shallow to have an opinion about a person based upon which hand is dominant. It would be equally shallow to let this one element define who you are.
As for judging or condoning, I suggest that through prayer, love, acceptance, patience, humility, and more prayer, a person could reach a level of understanding on this subject.
I’m new to this board and was reading this thread and the links therein. I do take it the whole problem came with the subject of homosexuality and when to judge and/or condone this.
My teenage daughter has homosexual friends. They are very nice, when they feel the need to just be kids my house is the crash house for them to vent about their problems and to listen to their music without someone belittliing them. For namesake the homosexual friend I will #1. #1 ask me one night what I thought of his homsexuality. I said #1 I really like you alot, but I think you can find your own answer in the Bible. #1 said well Mom (all of these kids call me Mom) show me in the Bible where it says it is wrong. So I took him to the verses where it talked of homosexuality. He read them, and I honestly think that he had necer read them before, so he said Mom what do you think? I said #1 I can’t change what the Bible says, you have read just like I have read it before. He said Mom I can’t change, I’ll just have to accept what comes if I die. I said #1 that is your decision, only you can make that decision. #1 says Mom do you still love me? I said yes I still love you, I don’t approve of what you do but I love you.
I didn’t judge him in no way he came to his own conclusion.
I don’t condone what he does and he knows that and is acceptable of that fact. Maybe some people can just accept the truth better than others.
Forgive me digging back a couple of days, but I wanted to say something about this.
-
I can’t stand baseball. Think it’s stupid. Same with golf. Does that mean I can’t stand A-Rod and Tiger Woods, that I think they’re stupid? No. I think they’re fine atheletes that play a sport I don’t like. (golf’s not a sport, but…) This is despite the fact I don’t care for what is arguably a bigger part of their lives than sex.
-
Homosexuality to me is not much different that adultery or sex outside of marriage – it is a sexual sin. It is a big deal to God, but to me, I am not the judge, so I don’t have to hate or despise the individual. I can even have homosexual friends, (have one, BTW) but they will eventually hear what God has to say about the issue.
-
It is homosexuals who have decided that their preferred sexual act defines their very being.
-
Don’t presume to tell others what they feel. If you don’t like my opinion, that does not give you the right to say I hate you.
That reminds me, why would you want to make that conclusion anyway? Isn’t that kind of fatalist? Will you ever be happy with a worldview that demands others have either fawning admiration or abject hatred of your preferred sexual practice and that that opinion directly maps to their opinion of you as a person?
Whatever you want to believe, God loves you, but he hates your sin. That applies to all of us.
Well, jjrt, did you also explain to #1 why you go sit in a tent during your “unclean” week of the month? Oh, you mean you violate Leviticus 15:19? Do you keep kosher? Why not?
The Bible doesn’t have pat answers and I hope your daughter’s friend finds a more knowledgeable source than you’ve demonstrated yourself to be so far. Your daughter’s friend identifies as gay. Even if he never has sex with another guy, he’s still gay. And nowhere in the Bible can you find any condemnation of it.
Furthermore, there is considerable debate on what the Leviticus scriptures you undoubtedly pointed him to really mean. Before you cause this child any more pain, please go read some of the discussion here.
If you show disgust towards me, don’t be surprised if I surmise that you hate me.
Utterly asinine and stupid comparison. One picks their occupation, one does not pick their sexual orientation. You religious bigots would like to think that we do, because that justify your hate and discrimination against people like me, but its just not so. An occupation is something one does, in order to make money. A sexual orientation is an unchangeable trait of who someone IS.
Why? It hurts no one. And the Bible, despite claims by religious bigots to say it does, doesn’t actually have anything to say about the modern phenomonon of stable, loving, committed homosexual relationships.
Yeah, such a big deal that Jesus forgot to say a single thing about it in his entire recorded life.
No, they hear what you, an anti-gay bigot, thinks God has to say about it. Do not confuse your hateful opinion with the truth. Any God who hates people for traits he gives them is terrible God. You want to worship a demon, go right ahead. You’ll get what you deserve in the end.
Only because we are the single most discrimionated against group in the country. If gays weren’t little more than second-class citizens in America, being gay wouldn’t be such a big deal on either side of the equation. You want gays to stop making such a big deal about our sexuality? Then give us full access to the institutions of society. So long as we are pput down and held down by the boots of oppressors we have to rage for equality.
Don’t presume to tell others that your opinion of what God thinks is the infallible truth.
If you hate a core trait of my person, then you hate me.
Any God who considers “sin” that which he places in a person, or that which harms no one, is a demon. And anyone who follows him is no better than a devil worshipper.