Congratulations, “Mom” (mommy dearest would be more accurate) – you’ve just taken a highly at-risk child and shown them disdain and hate, increasing the chance that he will do what so many gay teens do – try to kill himself. They ever find his self-mutilated corpse in a bathtub with his wrists slit one morning the future, you would do well to remember your little “God’s gonna send you to Hell” lecture.
I’m sorry, but is this supposed to be English?
Very reasonable.
Honestly, the first time I was confronted with an openly gay flaming guy, I struggled with it because I was raised a certain way. Not by Christian parents, but by bikers.
It was Christ’s example of love that I focused on to overcome my inbred reactions.
The short of it is, I don’t show or feel disgust. I don’t feel hatred and it is bothersome that some ascribe that to me because they disagree with me.
No it’s not. These are people who ARE their sports. They eat, exercise, practice, even pick their spouse with their sport in mind. Everywhere they go, people ask them about their sport. It overrides anything else about them. When Tiger Woods meets someone new, they don’t start a conversation on how to fix a car or what movies to go watch or Survivor–they talk about golf. He doesn’t lead a normal life, he leads a golf life. Also, it’s a common issue that professional athletes often have a very difficult time adjusting to other occupations. These are sorts of comparisons I had in mind.
Whatever your dressing or reasoning, sin is still sin. For example, sex outside of marriage is still wrong, whether I really really love the girl or not and whether my wife is satisfying my desires or not. I realize you want to debate whether homosexuality is a sin at all, but let’s argue at the core of that and not about the window dressing of whether it’s a stable, committed relationship or whatever.
I’m at work. I’ll either have to get back to this or let someone else tackle it.
Again, my opinion of homosexuality is not materially different than my opinion of any other sin. And even if it were true that my opinion is inaccurate, that does not mean I hate homosexuals.
BTW, the logic of I have a desire, God created me, God dislikes my desire, therefore that God must be a demon is lacking. In case you hadn’t noticed, all sins are part of our nature. That’s why we need Christ to bridge the gap between a carnal, sinful man and a holy God, whose very nature disdains sin. And that is why people like me tell others – we care about you and we want you to be saved from the punishment all of us have earned.
You said it again, and it’s still not true. I don’t hate you.
I don’t think you see the difference. These people were not born into their sports. They did have a choice about it.
I don’t think homosexuality is a sin. AFAIK it’s old testiment stuff. I eat pork and shellfish, I don’t consider those to be sins, therefore I don’t consider homosexuality to be a sin. I do consider sleeping around to be a sin (like 1 night stands) and if a homosexual is committing that sin I (and want’s my opinion) I will tell him/her. The same goes for a heterosexual person.
To be honest, I don’t think Jesus said anything about homosexuals either.
I don’t think you understand homosexuals (I’m not one, but I think I have a better grasp then you). It’s a little more than a desire. Take the feelings you have toward a SO, now change that person’s gender to match your own. It’s love you are feeling, which is a lot stronger than a desire. At least that’s how I look at it.
I agree with **Sdrawkcab ** , if you hate something as big as a person’s sexuality, how can you “love” the rest of them. Humans think about sex, their partners, and their potential partners A LOT, it’s very integrated into their being.
Er…this discussion has wandered far from my original intention, and I DID want to point out that while homosexuality was part of the discussion that started me thinking about this subject, it has nothing to do with the actual OP. Perhaps I didn’t present it well.
I also don’t mind that you all have entered into a discussion that has little (if anything) to do with my original intention.
I just wanted to clarify…the intent was to discuss how to handle the fine line between NOT judging and condoning. I personally found the discussion concerning that very valuable, and I appreciate all your input earlier in the thread.
However, I really think that it would be more possible to get valuable discussion concerning the topic being discussed NOW if you did it in a thread that was titled a little more clearly…such as "Is Homosexuality a Sin, (and if you think it IS, how should you handle it…both with your attitude toward people who happen to BE homosexual AND considering the Scripture’s instruction to “Judge Not That Ye Be Not Judged?”) [sub]more succinct would obviously be better, but I’m not going to start that thread, so I don’t have to get picky with myelf about it. Besides which, it might win an award for the LONGEST thread title in history![/sub]
Anyway, if you wish to continue the discussion HERE, I have no objection. Just thought you might be missing some people who might bring something useful to the table.
Well…
I think the whole homosexual issue is THE hotbutton issue on acceptance, condoning, judging, etc., which is why it’s at least a little important to debate that.
Nonetheless,
we will agree to disagree on whether homosexuality is a sin, though I’d dearly like the space to make the case when i have the time.
It remains an unfortunate fact, however, that many activists insist that others explicitly endorse their behavior or lifestyle. Absence of that endorsement is construed as hatred, bigotry, etc. (Did anyone notice the vitriol with which at least person responded to me?) How can there be any constructive dialogue when disagreement is met with scorn and name calling?
I submit that it is not only non-gays, but gays, who need to work on accepting others with different points of view.
Is that more to the point of the OP?
You can, just open up another thread in the GD! 
I think the problem is that Homosexuality-even if it is a sin-is getting an abundance of attention. When was the last time you read a thread about the sins of eating shellfish?
Also, I’m still interested in whether Jesus spoke about homosexuals-I’m not a bible scholar or anything (and I’m not looking to redirect the OP again), but I don’t recall ever reading that Jesus spoke about them. Is there a bible passage or two?
You’re right, Scotticher, this has been a bit of a hijack. The issue of homosexuality as sin or unnatural has been discussed. Over and over and over again in just the last year.
[sub]Thank God for preview. That was some awesomely bad coding the first time around[/sub]
OK - posted another “love the sinner, hate the sin” thread here for those who are interested.
Esprix
Excellent point. I agree entirely that wounds never heal while we’re picking at the scab.
I hope to keep such discussions to the logical level, hoping to avoid offense. It’s hard to do though when some feel so strongly.
Which begs the question, if the subject of debate is “the core” of one party in the debare, can there be an unemotional discussion? Hmm… I’d have to guess not, not usually anyway.
To keep on thread: Please allow me to ask the homosexual advocates what I could do to demonstrate tolerance. Is endorsement the only acceptable act on my part to show I don’t hate you?
Never say another word about homosexuality again in your natural life. You obviously do not understand what it means to be homosexual, nor do you care to, therefore you can never contribute anything to the discussion.
Vote only for political candidates who favor absolute, 100% equality for gay people in all things – including adoption and marriage.
Stop reading the Bible like its a factual history book. It’s nothing of the sort. Read the writings of Bishop Spong, perhaps the only major, decent Christian of note in the world today.
That would be a start.
I know this wasn’t directed at me, but I’ve never heard of this guy (?), what did he write.
John Shelby Spong has written several books on faith in the modern world. My favorite of his is Why Christianity Must Change or Die.
Another strong proponent of a new understanding of God I highly recommend is Marcus Borg, particularly his books The God We Never Knew and Meeting Jesus Again, For the First Time.
Um, never do anything to show you hate me? But if you really do hate homosexuality, be it orientation or action, then I would find it hard to believe you could ever truly embrace the gay community or any of its members.
But I will say that if you keep what’s in your heart or mind in your heart and never express it, no one would ever know, would they? Only you would. But the ways of expressing it vary, from anti-gay harassment on the far end of the scale, but in other more subtle ways - for example, voting for anti-gay legislation, the exclusion of friends and their partners from events, looking down the nose at others, avoiding topics of conversation, and so on and so forth. Like I said, if you really hate what it is we do, I believe in time that hate will come through.
And, from my own personal perspective, if I were friends with someone who never ever expressed their negative feelings about my homosexuality, well, then, I’d never be the wiser. But I’d also feel like I’d been played for a fool if I ever found out, and would seriously reevaluate my friendship with them. And if I met someone who was up front about how they felt about my homosexuality but was nice to me otherwise, I’d be nice back, but I’d never bring that person in to me as a close friend. How could I? To know someone is “against” one of the most natural and integral parts of my being is not what I look for in a friend.
Esprix
Not remotely the same. They chose to become sports stars, they chose to play that game, or it was chosen for them by their parents, and they later chose to continue playing. They weren’t born golfers or whatever game they waste their days playing. Gay people are born gay, and never get a bit of choice about it.
A sports star, to be a sports star, has to give themselves over to the sport, has to train constantly, watch what they eat, what school they go to, so on and so forth ad nauseum.
Not so for a gay person. A person could never go to a gay bar, never go to a gym, never buy anything rainbowy, never have sex with someone of the same gender, never even come out, and they’re just as gay as someone who does all of those things.
A sports star made themselves into a sports star. And chose to. A gay person was born that way, and had no choice in the matter. Not comparable in the least.
And they are bad comparisons, down the line. Gay people are not asked about being gay everywhere they go. Gay people aren’t limited in conversational topics to issues that are “gay.” Gay people do lead normal lives, aside from being denied rights people like you take for granted.
And as for athletes having a hard time in other occupations, perhaps if they’d picked up a book or two instead of wasting their time throwing balls or lifting weights, they’d have three brain cells to rub together.
There is no sin if there is no harm to another person. The idea that you can “sin” without hurting anyone, without damaging the world, is utter nonsense, gibberish tied to the long-rejected notion of a vengeful, patriarchal tribal diety whose followers decided that “sin” was anything that made their tribe more like the world around them. Such Old Testament views of God and sin have long since been discarded to the ash heap of history by all Christians with any intellectual heft to their faith. Of course, for such a job, literalists need not apply.
Not applicable in the case of gays: we are denied the ability to marry, so we must do the best we can with what we have.
A committed, stable relationship is the gay equivelent to marriage, at least until the bigots get out of our way and let the nation do the right thing and grant us true equality under the law.
Don’t bother. Jesus never says a word about homosexuality.
To call homosexuality sinful is to call the fact of my existence sinful, because I am homosexuality, to the core of my being. Get this through your skull: homosexuality is what someone IS not what someone does. To call homosexuality a sin is to call people in and of themselves living sin.
And even if it were true that my opinion is inaccurate, that does not mean I hate homosexuals.
That’s not the logic. Here’s the situation, from the perverted homosexuality-is-a-sin point of view:
Your comments denote a physical/spiritual dualism at work, a notion that has long since been discarded as spurious and heretical by the Christian religion – going all the way back to the pre-Constantinian era.
I don’t ned your help. I know more about the Christian religion today than you ever will.
Rescuing the Bible From Fundamentalistm, in which he makes mince meat of the moronic nonsense of Biblical literalism.
Living in Sin?, in which he shows that the Christian religion can be compatible with homosexuality and remarriage by challenging the patriarchal, tribal nonsense that colored early Jewish and Christian thought.
Born of a Woman, where he deals with the “virgin birth” story – today a central tenet of Christianity, but it is totally missing from the earliest accounts of Jesus, both in and outside the Bible (Mark, the first Gospel, never mentions it, nor do any of Paul’s writings regarding Jesus).
Why Christianity Must Change or Die, which makes the case for a new understanding of the Christian religion that is compatible with what we modern folk know of history, science, biology, etc, that our forebearers were ignorant of.
And several other books. He’s a godsend to thinking folk seeking to cling to a Christian faith in a religious mileiu where brainless literalism has taken hold, and driven countless millions from faith.
Now Esprix’s post is more or less my feelings. He would have doubts about me, knowing I believe homosexuality is a sin, but as long as I don’t show hatred toward him, we could at least be nominal friends. Totally rational.
The majority of backwards’ posts can be summed up as demanding that I endorse it wholeheartedly. They’re also full of hatred and intolerance.
Mithrilhawk, don’t get me wrong - the reason I doubt you is because I see you as a bigot just as much as you would see me as a sinner; that’s the reason I wouldn’t be friends with you. Of course I want friends who accept me for who I am, not ones that secretly pray for me at night because they think I’m somehow broken, wrong or simply misinformed. :rolleyes:
Besides, I am most assuredly not Christian, and thankfully don’t share your viewpoint about what God may or may not have to say about my loving relationships.
Esprix
Oh well, I must have misread Esprix’s previous post.
Anyway, the word bigot implies intolerance. I must return to the question of is there any way to be tolerant other than to endorse something?
You’re not endorsing something by just keeping your mouth shut when it’s inappropriate to prattle on about your own narrow-minded interpretation of scriptures.