Out of 39 Old Testament books and about 27 New Testament books, you were able to open it right up and show him where the pertinent info was, I’ll bet.
It doesn’t talk about ‘homosexuality’ per se, at least I haven’t seen anything yet. I’ve found absolutely nothing that would indicate that a person being attracted to the same sex is a sin. Has anyone else?
Mithrilhawk, are you or are you not intolerant of homosexual sex? If that’s how you’re defining bigotry, then you’ve got your answer.
Esprix
Just wanted to let you know, Mithrilhawk, that you’re not alone in believing homosexuality is a sin and you said it well in this post about any disagreement with homosexuality being met with scorn and namecalling. I agree that gays need to work on accepting others with differing points of view.
Well, Mithrilhawk, one obvious distinction I’d make is in the issue of whether it’s any of your business what somebody else does. To one extent, as a Christian, it is my business – because I am supposed to love and respect every other human being as I would myself. The problem in that is that if I attempt to apply the standards by which I judge myself to them without some very obvious sign of caring and compassion being evident to them, they are going to see it as me sitting in judgment over them.
“Tolerance” to me simply means, “By me you’re free to do what you want, and I won’t try to interfere with you living your life as you like unless you welcome my becoming a part of it – at which point I’ll be your friend, privileged to hold you when you cry, rejoice with you when you’re happy, encourage you when you’re afraid to try something, and guide you when you have a tough decision to make – and I’ll expect the same back from you.” You are in no way condoning or endorsing what Joe does that is not what you’d do, simply giving him the respect he deserves as another one of God’s children to follow his own moral judgments and do what he feels right for him.
I once tried to make the distinction that is very clear to me between “tolerance” and “acceptance” – the first implying a judgment and the second not. But that’s a separate ball of wax.
Uh, there’s a question implicit in this in my mind at least. I have not seen any cases of any activists listerally insisting on their opponents’ endorsement of their behavior or lifestyle. (Can we get rid of that last word? Please?) But this often is code for “if I agree that you have the same rights as I do, then I’m agreeing that what you do with those rights is endorsing your behavior, which I don’t want to do.” As in, “if you want to live together, it’s no skin off my nose, but if you want a legally sanctioned marriage, that implies that the state approves of your behavior, and I don’t want them to do that.” Is the latter the sort of thing you really meant?
I agree wholeheartedly with what you told this child. You could have told him or her nothing but the truth. To do otherwise would be unethical and wrong. I see it is true love in saying what you did.
Homebrew I saw the links you provided but I’m looking for a Scripture reference about one being attracted to the same sex, not how people or their various churches ‘feel’ about it.
His4Ever, do you have one?
No. In fact, throughout much of church history, homosexuals were NOT regarded as having committed sins. The story of Soddom and Ghamorrah (sp?) was about hospitality and was later changed to homosexuality. When Christian missionaries came to asia, they changed one of the commandments to be against homosexuality just so they could have an argument against it.
"“In AD 438…homosexual prostitution was still tolerated and taxed by the Christian emperors in all the cities of the empire.”
“In the Judaeo-Christian tradition several same sex couples became archetypes in the queer cultural tradition, apparently from an early period, notably David and Jonathan, Jesus and John, or ‘the Beloved Disciple’, and Ruth and Naomi. Boswell (1995) has charted the early homoerotic traditions of paired saints such as Perpetua and Felicitas, a Christan noblewoman and her female slave, martyred for their beliefs; Polyeuct and Nearchos, Roman soldiers…”
-The Myth of the Modern Homosexual. By Rictor Norton.
There is a great book by John Boswell called “Christianity, Social Tolerance and Homosexuality” which explains why the church changed from having ceremonies for homosexual marriages to suddently declaring it a sin.
I don’t know of any Scriptural references a out attraction to the same sex other than the ones that condemn homosexuality.
Get used to it, Mithrilhawk. I’ve been through this with these guys. They’re not going to accept anything you say that doesn’t endorse homosexuality. You have to get a thick skin around here.
and even those (I think there are two total) are debated as for intent and translation. There are things far more sinful than homosexuality that many Christians do today without the blink of an eye.
Homosexuality is the state of being attracted to others of the same sex. Please point out the appropriate chapters and verses that condemn it.
I respectfully disagree with you. Because it isn’t a matter of what you believe is a sin that I was thinking about, it was if you DO believe something is wrong, but not actively hurting anyone, what do you DO about it? The Bible quite clearly instructs us NOT to judge. (At least it is quite clear to ME.) The Bible also instructs us to love our neighbor. Sometimes the two seem at odds with each other, and I wanted help figuring out where and when it is our right…even our obligation…to make it clear that something is wrong. In other words, when does NOT judging become “condoning?”
I think I have a better understanding of the whole subject, this dicussion was very valuable in helping me with that. I’ll try to explain where I GOT to, and I hope I can explain it briefly, so as not to get in the way of your current discussion.
If someone is homophobic (to kind of use the subject of the current debate,) but isn’t DOING anything about it, it might be argued that that attitude isn’t actively hurting anyone. My realization, which I posted some time back, is that it has the POTENTIAL of being VERY actively hurtful to others, and it would be wrong to sit by and not SAY so. I would link to that post, but I don’t know how. To use the example I used earlier, I think it probable that a whole LOT of people sat by in the early days of Hitler and felt that Hitler was WRONG in his attitudes toward non-Aryan people, but didn’t say anything. Since his attitudes HAD the potential to harm others, (and in fact…of course…DID end up with the loss of freedom/the death of/millions of people) then if I had been there in the beginning before the actual ACTIVE horror started, and NOT said that I thought Hitler’s attitudes were WRONG, then I would have been “condoning” something that I felt had great potential for harm.
Anyway…now I probably just totally confused the whole issue, but that is my two cents on it.
Why should we accept a point of view that leads to us being physically abused, legally discriminated against, jailed, discharged from military service, denied the same rights as our heterosexual friends and puts us in a less secure postion in regards to employment and housing in most states?.
Would you?
Are you talking about just the feelings or attractions to the same sex or talking about homosexuality itself, the actions of sex with the same gender?
There is nothing wrong with condemning homosexuality if you believe it is a sin — so long as you are willing to accept condemnation of your own sins as perceived by others. Take what you want, but eat what you take.
I tolerate it – I’m not in your bedroom and I’m not calling the thought police and I’m not demanding that you stop and I’m not calling you names.
On the other hand, some people here are demanding that I shut up, that I change my opinion. That’s intolerance. Why it’s anti-Christian bigotry.
In all seriousness…
I recognize that the homosexual community is the target of a lot of thick-skulled ignorant hatred. Further, that a lot of the haters use the Bible as a weapon. I also recognize that I will never understand precisely what it is like to live under such conditions.
I do hope to point out, though, that intolerance of my opinion to the point of name calling is based more on emotions than logic.
I assume you know what you’re talking about, and you say there are ones that condemn homosexuality. I’d like to know which ones. That goes for anyone here, feel free to supply 'em.
I can endorse everything you said here with only insignificant quibbling. Sure, sign my name to the above statements.
**
This is also an accurate statement of my opinion. It’s also indicative of the issue, Backwards, for example, is likely to insist that if I don’t condone gay marriage, it’s because I hate homosexuals. By extension, only by endorsing this issue can he consider me * not * a bigot.
Leviticus 18:22
Leviticus 20:13
Romans 1:26-27
1 Cor 6:9
By what reasoning besides bigotry can you oppose allowing gay people the same marriage rights as heterosexuals. What about the other issues I raised earlier? Would you tolerate those limits?