Just a Little Smack on the Bum?

Great Debates
21

Hey, that’s okay Grok. I know a few teachers at my children’s school who I believe would greatly benefit from a well timed smack. And, I’m six foot two and over 225 lbs. Knowing how to deliver a well focused strike from years of martial arts training would also come in handy here.

Ooooooooh, gee. Was that threatening or intimidating? Really? It was supposed to be. Grok, you’re an ADULT. You’re * SUPPOSEDLY* the one in control of the situation. Ruminating over the benefits of whacking children isn’t your job- just as ME even daring to consider a physical threat of a teacher isn’t MY job in life. If it is your job, then kindly name the school district and state that granted you tenure. I’ve got me a heck of a letter to write. I mean, goodness, in OUR state public school teachers are legally mandated to REPORT evidence of abuse to the police department, they have no choice in the matter.

If I did misunderstand your words and what you really meant was that you knew kids who could benefit greatly from a well timed smack delivered in the privacy of their own home by their legal guardian, then guess what? It’s still despicable.

You wanna fantasize about human rights abuses? Move to Beijing. They’re gonna adore you there.

My son is turning 11 in a few weeks. My daughter is 9 1/2. I have never struck them. Guess what? They’re normal average kids, sometimes aggrivating, sometimes sublimely delightful. I’ve never hit them. EVER. Never will, either. All it does is teach them to use their fists instead of their minds.

Cartooniverse

22

Well, I have to agree with Grok on that one. I think the only way to get through to some kids is with a smack once in awhile. I really don’t think that a small tap on the derriere is gonna scar anybody for life; and it does tend to focus the child’s attention on the matter at hand; namely, that he stops what he is doing and behaves. Maybe your kids are good. Maybe they do listen. Not all parents are so fortunate or so involved. I see nothing wrong with bodily punishment if a consistently recalcitrant kid has ignored all other attempts you have made to communicate displeasure with what he is doing at the time, most especially in a classroom situation where he is distracting other children. But it’s really a moot point if you’re dealing with the public school system, or even most parochial schools anymore. Additionally, I have encountered quite a few kids who were totally out of control precisely because their parents never punished them physically… they knew that “no” or “don’t do that” or “stop” really meant, “if you keep at it, I will ultimately let you have your way because you obviously don’t listen when I speak firmly to you and I have nothing else with which to bargain and I’m too tired anyhow to argue.”

Just my opinion.

23

Well the kids that actually need the smacking are the kids that you can’t smack, namely the ones that wont listen to you. If they allow you to hit them then there is a better way. If they are really out of control then they wont allow you to hit them.

Now if some kids are out of control because their parents say “no” or “don’t do that” then the kids have obviously not been punished by having things taken away or whatever. I guess you have never heard of “the other things to bargain with” Creaky. Physical or taking stuff away both punishments are about the same. Both will stop working when the kid becomes a teenager and actually tries to become out of control.

24

I must admit, I agree with you here Asmodean. Follow-through is EVERYTHING. The simplest threat to the most complex possible punishment is useless if you won’t actually DO what you say. The balance of power shifts to a child when the realize that you aren’t as good as your word.

Cartooniverse

25

We’ve been “debating” this topic on my other message board. I put “debating” in quotes because these people are rock-hard fundamentalist Christians who immediately revert to, “the Bible tells you to beat you’re[sic] children!” as soon as you challenge their statements. :sigh:

I believe physical violence is wrong. I believe that if I wish for my children to respect me, I must show them respect in return. I say to them “please” and “thank you” just as I would to an adult. I am trying to model appropriate behavior. So far, it has worked: they are all well-behaved, polite, and respectful, so much so that I constantly get compliments on this.

I believe that I have no more right to strike my children than my boss has the right to strike me in order to discipline me. My boss can guide me without physically hurting me; I can guide my kids without hurting them, too.

I cannot teach my kids my core value (i.e. ‘hurting other people is wrong’) if I make a hypocrite out of myself by spanking them. I believe that spanking teaches kids that it’s okay for bigger, stronger people to hit in order to get their way. I believe it teaches them that physical force is okay, at least sometimes.

No matter what method of discipline anyone uses, consistency is the most important point. If you do not always (always) back up what you say, kids will push you to your limit. They will learn that ‘no’ sometimes but not always means ‘no’. They will disobey on the off-chance that this is one of “those” times. It is better to spank consistently than to not-spank inconsistently.

LoadedDog, I am quite sure that your stepson’s adjustment to you being his new daddy is a big part of the behavior issue. You say he is now 3 1/2, and you have known him for “7 or 8 months”. Children this age do not have the verbal ability or the maturity to express their emotions. He has obviously not had the world’s best infancy, you are a new guy competing for his mommy’s affections (children this age guard their mommies jealously), and he is only now learning to trust you. Please keep his developmental age in mind when disciplining him, and remember that he is pretty far behind his age group developmentally- probably because of the turmoil and lack of discipline in his life so far.

In other words, try to think like a three-year-old, one who has not yet known stability or discipline. I don’t think you’re doing a bad job; the child needs discipline. However, he needs love even more. If you intend to stay with his mom, please don’t let him down. When you get involved with a woman-with-child-in-tow, you’re getting involved with both of them. That little boy will be more affected by your presence or absence, your love or indifference than his mother could ever be.

26

The Loaded Dog, mate, you’ve got a sh*tload of stuff happening. What support do you have? The bad news is that stepkids (and bio kids) it isn’t like you are going to Fix it once and have it fixed permanently. I would bet dollars that if Daddyo is back in the picture, then you are in for it. A lot of behaviour problems are likely to rear their ugly heads.

And speaking as a stepparent, were you aware that there is a lot of abuse in stepfamilies? If you are smacking a 3 yo to get them to behave, then what are you going to do later?

You’re in Melbourne right? Or Sydney?

http://www.health.nsw.gov.au/areas/ccahs/mental/positive_parenting_program.htm

The Triple P Parenting Program is effective and would give you more tools to work with Ben and from what you share, it is likely you are going to need them.

Good luck

27

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Cartooniverse *
**

**So do I. You’ll get no argument from me on that one. But you know those obnoxious adults you don’t like? Guess where they came from? There were kids at one time, and maybe they were obnoxious kids too.

If you go back and actually read my post, you’ll find that I would probably never smack a child even if I were allowed to. I find the suggestion distasteful, and I feel teachers should have better tools.

However, some kids are past that point, such as the kid in the OP. **

I’d support either. As long as SOMEONE is teaching the kids how to behave. And…

**That’s great! But not all kids come from such a background, and have not been taught how to behave by anyone.

Also, there are lots of parents who think their children are little angels, and are completely unaware of how the behave with other people. Although I’m sure YOUR children would NEVER fit that description…**

**I’m inclined to agree 99% of the time. But as I say, some kids are past that point, and not much else is going to get their attention. I’m also 99% sure I will never find myself in a situation where I am genuinely tempted to let a kid have one on the rear end.

But there are special cases. The world is not black & white my friend - watch for shades of grey.**

28

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Grok *
** Also, there are lots of parents who think their children are little angels, and are completely unaware of how the behave with other people. Although I’m sure YOUR children would NEVER fit that description…*

Hey ! No fair, loading up that water squirter with Sarcasmaplasm…and point very well taken. I don’t think my kids are little angels, I think they’re young complex people. I think they are all things- joyous, vexing, gleeful, gratifying, loving, angry, passionate, thoughtful, wicked, silly, and yes really aggrivating sometimes. What I don’t think they are is a physical recipient for my frustrations. It’s not their place in life to be bashed around because I’m sleep deprived, angry with the Wifestrocity, mad at work, or peeved at them.

<Frown> why do you have to be on the money so much? Makes it hard to debate you. I’m a visualist, I make my living generating images for others. God bless shades of gray. :slight_smile:

Cartooniverse

29

Looks like both of us need to take a 5 hour Remedial Previewing course. Our posts are FILLED with bold, bold, bold.

Dammit ! Didn’t catch the coding, and at some point Preview will stop being my best friend, and will stop returning my calls.

:smiley:

30

Guess I was a little sarcastic there Cartooniverse. Sorry 'bout that.

Incidentally, looking over our posts in the bullying thread, you and I agree more than I thought from our exchange here.

31

I met Ben’s natural father yesterday when he came to our house to visit Ben. The meeting was quite friendly, and I tried to impress upon the guy the fact that I would much rather (for Ben’s sake) be able to operate on friendly terms with him. He was fine with this, although I am still unsure of his motives. Ben seemed to recognise his father (which surprised me -pleasantly), but he was a little subdued during the time his father was with us.

Thanks for the link Primaflora. I’m already aware of that programme, and I do intend to call them and book in. I was referred to this by a behavioural specialist doctor to whom Kim and I took Ben several months ago (guess I should have mentioned this earlier - D’OH). BTW, I asked this doctor about the smacking issue, and his opinion was “Yes, but do it fairly, gently, and without anger”. Sounded ok to me.

To the NEVER EVER hit your kids posters, I have a little trouble agruing with you because, on a certain level I agree with you, and always have. However, as people have pointed out in this thread, the fact that Ben is so young prevents more complex dialogue of the type I intend to use as part of the disciplinary process when Ben is older. Similarly, Holly, your analogy of a boss striking an employee is flawed, I believe, because there are fundamental differences between the two types of interpersonal repationships. My boss would never hit me, but would also not be able to ground me or tell me to go and sit in a corner, or send me to bed without my supper. Similarly, I don’t think I’m in a position to dole out adult-style punishments to Ben. A fine perhaps? Jail? Ban him from the Straight Dope? There is another thing you mentioned in your post with which I agree 100%. It made me sit up and say YEAH!. I extend the same general courtesies to Ben which I would use were I talking to an adult. I expect (and get) a “please” and “thank you” from him. It would be highly hypocritical of me not to do the same in return.

Punishment of a child by an adult is, by its very nature, an adversarial situation. As far as I can see, there is NO form of punishment which is certain to have no psychological after-effects. Looking back at my own childhood, I was the subject of a wide range of various punishment techniques by parents and teachers. I was caned at school (it was legal then). The particular incidents which have stuck with me, and left a lingering sense of injustice, were the ones which involved a prolonged punishment such as grounding or school detention. Personally, I’d rather get the sting on the backside, and be able to forget about it. Yes, I am aware that there is a deeper ethical issue here, but I am speaking purely from my own experience. This brings me to the point that, from the posts above, child discipline seems to be a very subjective thing. I don’t think I am in any way scarred by being smacked as a child, however I don’t claim that all children are the same as I was. Some might be very resentful of it.

One of the aspects of smacking Ben which I must admit appeals to me is that when I smack him, I am forced to slow down and think. I would hate myself if I ever struck him in anger. That’s why I described it as “surgical” in my OP. I am a very big person, and once or twice I raised my hand to Ben without hitting him, with the idea that I could get him to stop whatever it was he was doing. It worked, but I no longer do this because I don’t want my punishment to be based on fear. I either smack Ben or I don’t.

One last point: I possibly worded my OP badly in that it could be mistaken that my question was regarding the difference between hitting a stepchild or my own biological child. As far as Ben’s mother and I are concerned, I am one of the two major adult figures and caregivers in Ben’s life. The stepchild issue is a whole different debate. My question is regarding the punishment aspect. I would have started this thread had it been my own biological child.

As I type this, I’m now wearing an inflatable Thomas the Tank Engine chair as a hat. Hmm… Ben’s fashion sense is still somewhat lacking.

WHY, YOU LITTLE… hey, just kidding! :smiley:

32

Having worked with children (and often their parents) on a daily basis, I’ve seen many kids whose parents haven’t a clue how to handle them. There’s nothing more irritating than watching a 3 or 4 year old running around throwing things, while her/his mom apologizes and says she can’t figure out their behavior. The mom should realize that it’s her fault, since she’s the one letting them run around like that…

The problem is that the kids in question haven’t been disciplined at all. Personally, I don’t think it’s right to hit kids. Some people say it’s the only way to get them to pay attention, and I think that’s BS. My brother and I were almost never hit (I was hit probably 3 times total) but we knew the consequence of misbehaving- standing in the corner. Many people use time outs, but I doubt that they’re have as effective as standing in the corner, looking at the wall, since time outs the definition of “time out” ranges from go do whatever in your room, to sit in full view of everyone else, neither of which is a boring as looking at the patterns on the wallpaper. Nothing is better to make you wonder if what ever you did was worth the result, and it’s pain-free to boot. I think that in the unlikely event of becoming a parent myself, I’d make sure there was a corner or two in my house handy. In any case, a time out is better than nothing, as long as it’s consistent.

Either you have kids whose behavior in public earns you compliments (Mom got many) because you make them realize that their behavior has consequences or you have a kid that no one can stand being around because they’re a brat because you do nothing. It seems like your stepson is learning that too, but maybe you can change to a non-physical form of discipline, and be equally effective.

33

My brother and I were both physically disciplined as kids, and both attended a rigourous private school with military background and much discipline, and it never did either of us any harm except that one committed suicide and the other ended up in a mental hospital.

Sorry! That doesn’t really sum up my position - it’s just a sentence I’ve often wanted to deliver!

I just can’t accept that my problems came solely from the method of punishment that was used. Their roots lie far deeper than that. The truth is, the physical punishment debate probably focuses attention on the wrong area - the punishment - rather than seeing punishment, physical or otherwise, as part of an incalculably more complex whole, an Upbringing, which is wrought with fears and securities of all sorts, and in all but a painful minority of cases depends far less on the choices in this area than we might think. An ideal upbringing surely avoids physical abuse not by changing the punishment, by by changing the PARENTS THEMSELVES. Here’s something far more constructive than debating the niceties of individual discipline:

Never,
never,
never,
never,
never,
never,
never,
never,
never,
never,
never,
never,
never,
never,
never,
never,
never,
never,
never,
never,
never,
never,
never,
never,
never,
never,
never,
never,
never,
never,
never,
never,
never,
never,
never,
never,
never disagree with your wife in front of your children.

That’s not my idea, it came from some guy on a videotaped conference, and it may be couched in terms we could debate even further, but can we see the heart of the idea the guy is trying to promote? If you can make that possible, I think you’re going somewhere good.

34

I just felt this was important enough to bear repeating. It is the parent’s job to instil proper behavior in the child.

35

Wow, you guys are good. Thanks all for the thought-provoking, er, thoughts.

Ross, your post summed up an excellent overall philosophy that I agree with 100%-- spank or don’t spank, doesn’t matter to me as long as the 'rents are consistent in a complete and effective “discipline” (as opposed to “punishment”) plan. Children instinctively test their limits; it’s their way of saying “Hey! Mom! Dad! Are you gutsy enough to show me the right way to do things? Are you paying attention to me? Do you give a shit?” If Mom and Dad aren’t right there with an immediate, dispassionate consequence, the answer is “Nope” on all counts. Result=unhappy kid. This jives with the OP commenting that the young’un seemed happier… of course he’s happier; all other things equal, the kid with limits is happier than the one without. Just my .02

(That said, I’m with Grok–being resonable does not work with some kids!)

Loaded Dog, I give you LOTS of credit— seems like you’ve done a great job of taking ALL the issues into account and come up with some level-headed responses… not just oversimplifying it to ‘spank vs. no-spank’ and ‘bio vs. step’. Sounds to me like you are right on track all the way through.

36

As long as it’s a spanking for a legitimate reason, I don’t see anything wrong with it. However, if it is done in anger or for an unknown reason, trust me when I say it will haunt that child forever and they many never forgive you for it. I have crystal clear memories of being beaten (and I mean beaten) as a child by my mother (you know- the person who is supposed to take care of you and love you? That person) while I looked for a shoe under my messy bed. I kid you not, I cannot look under my bed now, as an adult, without that hateful memory popping into my head. The humiliation of being hit for no good reason burns deep in a person. That is just one example of many.

On the other hand, I’ve known people who were physically disciplined as children the “right way” (not in anger, having the offense explained, etc) and they turned out great (as far as I’m aware). Just be very careful to never cross that line. I can tell you from experience that my mother will be a very lonely old woman someday.

One additional point, just remember that your perspective (just a smack on the bum) may be vastly different from the child’s perspective. He/she may consider it hateful and confusing. Use your best judgement, that’s all I’m asking.

Zette

37

Spanking can be a good way of keeping a little kid out of trouble. I think it’s best not to stay mad afterward though, because that will only re-enforce hurtful feelings. Give the kid a hug and kiss afterward, it’s good for both of you.

And don’t do it at all after the kid turns 5 or 6 or so. My mother once spanked me when I was 11 or so and misplaced my retainer. No one else saw it, but I was absolutely mortified!