I’m a small “l” libertarian. I don’t know if that makes me left or right. On this type of issue, I’d probably be considered left. I would even like to see “doctor assisted suicide” allowed by law (with strong safeguards, of course).
I think that religious people can have (non-fanatical) reasonable beliefs on these types of life and death issues and that they should have access to the political process to express those beliefs. I think that assuming someone is pursuing a crass political agenda rather than following his or her conscience. I’m mainly speaking of the parents here, and the appeals process they have gone thru. The fact that Bush sided with the parents is, I think, a reflection of his sincerely held religious beliefs, and not some crass political ploy.
I’m an atheist, but I think religious people often get short shrift on this board.
oddly enough, I was in a very similar position one year ago and in FLorida Thankfully, Mr. Bush was not involved. And, in our case, the issue wasn’t a ‘persistant vegitative state’ but did involve removing a feeding tube.
It was an intensely personal. family crisis and situation. I’d have deeply resented any fucking poltician, legislative body, poster on a fucking message board or, frankly anyone else than his immediate family having anything to do with the situation.
Fortunately in our case pretty much all of us were in agreement, including the unmarried partner. However, if that agreement wasn’t there, it still wasn’t the fucking business of Jeb and/or the legislators.
If he had merely acted as a private citizen, e.g., by helping with the legal fees, filing amicus briefs (if that or something similar was possible in the kinds of trials that occurred?), etc., I wouldn’t be as upset. But he used his office to make unconstitutional legislation in an attempt to interfer with this case, and that’s what bugs me the most. He could have expressed his views and supported the parents without abusing his office.
I’m a church-goer, and I agree. I also think that politicians shouldn’t use their religious views as an excuse for abusing their position.
(Yes, what constitutes an abuse of a political office is another one of those “reasonable people may disagree things”.)
Silentgoldfish, I know what a DNR is, but what is an NFR?
Funny, a lot of the religious conservatives who want Jeb to intervene are the same ones who scream and yell about DCF and others who want to “interfere with the family!”
Few reasonable people would disagree with any of that.
However, you have no idea how strong the power of denial can be. Everybody has an uncle’s in-law’s cousin’s in-law’s mailman’s hairdresser’s grandmother who the doctors gave up for dead, but they came right out of it and went on to singlehandedly win us the Civil War. Consequently, it becomes easy to deny the results of testing and the opinions of the physicians. As long as the patient is not dead, there is always hope for a miracle.
Schiavo’s family has apparently found some doctors who are willing to say that Terri could be helped with rehab, and they seem to honestly believe that. I think that such docs should be thrown out of the profession on their ass, personally, unless they’re aware of some amazing new rehab that rebuilds a decimated cerebrum.
OMG! You know of my Great-Great-Uncle’s Brother’s Cousin’s Ex-Girlfriend In Law?
Wow, it was a miracle! She had a cannon ball for a head! Then, she had a NDE and saw a green-yellow-red light flashing one to another. Then she used her cannon ball head to kill off Ulysses S. Grant and won the war for the North!!!1111 one one one
DOn’t BElieve the detRactOrs! NDEs are real! Don’t BeliEve the EVIl doctors who are in leaGuE with TeH EVIl AthEiTs of Do0M!
The physicians who convinced the parents that there was any hope should be getting the pitting, everything after was just a result.
The moment one single quack opened his mouth and said there was a chance for recovery, the parent’s refused to give up. Granted, they’re a bit delusional to ignore the mountains of evidence that have been shown against since they had that initial gem, but once you start down that path, the emotional investment makes it hard to turn back. I can see why they’re covering their ears and screaming LALALALALALALA.
When I first heard they wanted to remove her feeding tube, I was horrified. They were going to let this poor woman die of thirst and hunger, an agonizing death?
Then, I saw Schaivo on Larry King. He explained that poor Terri doesn’t have enough brain left to feel thirst or hunger. The videos her parents made of Terri following a balloon with her eyes are edited to cut out the other 39 times they passed a balloon before her eyes and she didn’t follow it.
He also claimed that her father wanted to know how much money he would get from the lawsuit. That money has gone to Terri’s medical care and lawyers. There is no money.
Schaivo came across as very tired and saddened. As I understand it, his wife had bulimia and went into a coma due to a potassium deficiency. The people who claimed that she never talked about a living will fail to understand that she was a woman in her 20s. I’m sure thinking about death was the last thing on her mind. All her husband has to go on is a passing comment she made while watching a documentary on coma victims, in which she stated she wouldn’t want to live like that.
I normally support Governor Bush, but he’s crossed the line this time. It’s time to let Terri go. Her soul left 14 years ago. All that remains now is an empty shell. Let her go.
It stands for “North Florida Rules!” and is used by residents of the upper parts of the Gator state to express their civic pride.
It stands for “No Flaming Rice!” Some practicioners of Santaria try to gain favor with the spirits by offering them a bowl of rice mixed with burning rum. A NFR order specifies that this not be done and that no mambos, babalawos, or root doctors be allowed to attempt any heroic measures.
It stands for “No Frankenstein Research!” This reflects the growing belief that the descendants of Herr Doktor Frankenstein live in a castle hidden deep in the Everglades, and that local hospitals secretly supply them with cadavers.
It stands for “No Filching Ruggele!”. This order is very popular with the many retired Jews living near Boca Raton. It makes it clear that when emergencey personnel are there, they are not to nosh on ruggele, kugle, schecken, mandelbroit, macaroons, halvah, or other sweets.
It stands for “Non Ferengi Registration”. This order is very popular with the overweight, forty-year-old, virgin sons of the retired Jews. It specifies that they are not Ferengi and that their corpses should not automatically be dried, sliced into section, vacuum-packed, and auctioned.
This may seem a poor thread for humor. But, when you realize that you haven’t been living in hell, unable to end the suffering of an empty shell, and accused of trying to murder somebody who died years ago, I’m thinking you’ll start to feel pretty cheerful.
We’re ok with putting our pets to sleep when there’s no chance of recovery and have nothing left to grant them but a life of pain, indignity and misery,
But we’re not only willing to let our sentient human loved ones die lingering deaths unknowing (as in this case), or even worse, force them to stay when they’re still aware, know it’s their time and wish to go. (as far as the law is concerned)
I’ve said it before, and I’ll keep saying it, so that if or when the question comes up in my case, there’ll be no question what my wishes are.
I would never want to end up like that. If that was my only recourse for existance, no thank you.
I also cannot and will not going out like my grandmother, whose husband refused to let her go. She died an utterly agonizing death of breast cancer. When nothing helped the pain anymore, he brought her home to scream her last few days of misery out, as long as her voice lasted. She was insensible at the last, doped to her eyeballs, and still in pain when she died.
Am I for euthanasia? Hell yes, I am. No human being one should be forced to suffer the pain, the indignity, the type of death they wouldn’t allow their fucking dog to suffer.
Food for thought: if you agree that Bush should not have intervened in this matter, would you feel the same way if he had intervened in a case involving a Jehovah’s witness who was withholding chemotherapy for his child who was suffering from a rare, usually fatal cancer?
The father has standing to make the decision as he is the parent. The prognosis is very grim. It is a deeply personal, anguishing choice to make.
Is this a right to privacy issue or protection of the helpless? The fact that Ms.Robyn says “She MAY never recover.” troubles me, and I’m sure it troubles her parents as well. For those who think that Ms. Shiavo’s recovery is hopeless, remember Terry Wallis .
My heart goes out to the husband AND the parents. What a crappy situation they face. Which leads me to pit anyone in this thread who has criticized Bush yet does not have a signed and notarized living will, clearly marked, in an easily accessible spot. If you’re not an organ donor, I’d pit you as well but that’s a whole nuther thread.