I think this is a false analogy: Schiavo was an adult. The state has stronger protections for children because they’re not mature enough to make decisions like this. Schiavo was mature enough, and had made her decision.
As Metacom pointed out, this is a false analogy.
Sometimes things happen for which there are few, if any, good choices. The alternatives are to keep Schiavo on life support indefinitely, until she dies a natural death, or let her go now and see what happens.
Bush is being pitted because he seems to have glommed onto this case as a way to help his standing among a core constituency and overstepped the legal bounds of his office. Before now, he probably didn’t know the Schiavo or Schindler families. But this juicy case comes along at just the right moment, and Bush and the Florida legislature are all over it. In the eyes of a lot of people, that makes Bush a scumbag for interfering in a case where he has no legal authority to act; and he’s interfering on behalf of people who don’t have the standing to act, either.
Deciding to let a desperately ill person go is one of the hardest decisions anyone can make, and I don’t envy anyone for having to make it. However, sometimes it needs to be made, and sometimes keeping that person “alive” on life support is the cruelest thing possible.
And, FTR, I am an organ donor, and I’ve made my end-of-life wishes abundantly clear to my parents and my husband.
Robin
According to what I’ve read in this and other threads, the parents do not have the power to make that decision (I expect one of the Dopers Esquire will fill us in on the details of the law and whether this is a state or federal law). Legally, the husband is the only one with the power to make this decision.
Neither. The issue is the husband being prevented from exercising a legal right by people who have no legal standing to do so.
Before the various SDMB threads on this case, I was reasonably sure that recover was impossible barring a literal miracle(not simply a recovery people describe as miraculous, but one accomplished by a visiting doctor who glows, has wings, walks on water, or drives up in a flaming chariot). After reading what Qadgop and our other medical Dopers had to say on the matter, I am now certain that recovery is impossible barring a literal miracle. The linked story says that Wallis was never examined by a neurologist. AFAIK, Shiavo has been examined by specialists aplenty, and given CATs, MRIs, PETs, and every other kind of scan that can be done on the brain.
Both my parents (who being retired Jews, obeyed the instinct to move to Boca Raton) have very detailed living wills. After Jeb’s actions, they are worried that those documents will not be honored. I worry that a shmuck acting unconstitutionally may prevent me from carrying out my parent’s wishes, despite the many times they have discussed them with me over the years.
Mom is not an organ donor due to a blood transfusion which gave her hepatitis. This depresses her as she very much likes the idea that in death, she would be able to perform one last round of good deeds. Considering the overall state of dad’s health, I doubt he’s eligible to donate. However, during his thirty five years of working for the government, he gave blood every time he was eligible. He became upset a few years ago when he was told that he was too old to be listed as a potential donor in the national bone marrow database. This was only partly due to his dislike of being told he is a senior citizen. Mostly, it was because he was upset at the thought that somebody out there might need his marrow.
A lot of people in the thread are advocating living wills. I actually do not recommend them.
Living wills are almost never useful, for a variety of reasons–they can never be comprehensive enough to cover every potential situation, they can be overridden by family members, and more often than not the only two copies are in a lawyer’s office that won’t be open until long after decisions need to be made and a safe deposit box owned by the person who is in a coma. It can help to clarify what your wishes might have been, but it guarantees nothing.
The health care proxy/durable power of attorney/health care power of attorney is a far better option. You designate a person to be the one to make your health care decisions for you, and then his or her decisions are as binding as if they were your own. You then help that person understand what decisions you’d make. It’s still no guarantee, since that person could panic and want everything done, but it’s a lot more useful.
I can’t tell if you’re referring to Schiavo’s case or to your own hypothetical, but if it’s the former, the law in Florida (I’m told) clearly gives the husband the right to make the decision.
I was referring to the hypothetical situation where parents withhold treatment of their child for religious reasons. Some have argued that since Schiavo’s husband was her legal guardian, his wishes should supercede all others, end of story. I was merely trying to cite possible roadblocks to that logic.
I have a living will, health care power of attorney, durable power of attorney – all naming my husband as my decision maker. I know he’d anguish over the decision but I’m comfortable that he’d do the best he could for both of us, and our children. And I have guaranteed him that I won’t come back and haunt him since his heart was in the right place.
But as a parent, given similar circumstances (in that Ms. Schiavo was not involved in a horrific, brain-scrambling accident, but rather she slipped into a coma for reasons unknown), I’m not sure I could let my child’s spouse withhold her feeding tube. Withholding life support I could live with. But if she were able to sustain life except for nourishment…I might have to fight my son-in-law on that one. And I realize that I’m being somewhat irrational here because I’d want my parents to honor my husband’s wishes. The law will undoubtedly ultimately side with Schiavo on this, but I can’t say that I blame the parents or Jeb Bush. This isn’t a black and white issue and their hearts seem to be in the right place.
I understand where you’re coming from. But how are these things to be decided? Is intervention by government or by citizens’ groups really the answer?
Part of the reason a hierarchy of decision-making exists is to avoid problems like this. Someone has to have the final say-so, and the law says it’s the spouse first, then the adult children, then the parents. Otherwise, what should be a private family matter would be fair game for anyone with an opinion, and people such as Mrs. Schiavo would be left in limbo while their lives are being argued in court or on the floor of the state legislature.
Truth be told, I can’t ascribe pure motives to Gov. Bush or to the Florida state legislature for their involvement. This reeks of election-year politics and the rather cynical explotation of private pain for political gain. I understand that Gov. Bush is deeply religious and holds certain values because of that, but improving his standing with religious conservatives can’t hurt, either.
Robin
I wonder if they’re thinking of using stem cells…hmm…
What about a pectoral tattoo? It’s something I’ve idly considered, but never actively pursued, as a means of making my wishes clear despite whatever health problem I might be experiencing. Something short and simple: “DO NOT RESUSCITATE / Documents on file with <big law firm that’s likely to persist for a few decades, phone number>.” There’d be absolutely no question then: this is what I want, and here’s how you verify it.
what the fuck do my preparations (in another state) have to do w/my personal aversion to Bush’s actions here, clearly against Florida law? In addition, my personal preparations have nothing the fuck to do w/my adherence to my loved one’s wishes, either. Should I decide on a living will, a health care proxy/durable power of attorney, the whim of my closest living relative at the pertinant time, and/or want all measures taken has not a fucking thing to do with some goddamn politician’s personal beliefs. He should stay the fuck out of my hospital room, along with you, thank you very much.
Chill out, wring. My point is that if you feel so strongly that the state has no business in your hospital room, then you should have a signed, notarized health care power of attorney and living will prepared in the event you are unable to speak for yourself. Doing so might very well help avoid a court battle.
One of the reasons the Schiavo case is in the courts is because there is no concrete evidence of what the patient, Ms. Schiavo, would have wanted. Had a living will and/or health care power of attorney been filled out that clearly stated she wanted the plug pulled, then there would have been no question what she would have wanted.
Mr. Schiavo claims he and his wife had conversations where she voiced her opinion on the matter. Her parents argue that Schiavo’s faith (catholicism) is in opposition to his claim. So there’s enough ambiguity that the courts have a right, perhaps even a duty, to intervene on her behalf.
For that reason, if you feel strongly about it, go ahead and bitch up a storm. But put your money where you mouth is and prepare a living will.
PunditLisa, it is becoming increasingly obvious that you are simply willfully ignoring the facts of this case for whatever reason you may have.
Your statement that “… she slipped into a coma for reasons unknown” is not true. She suffered a heart attack and the flow of blood to her brain was cut off for five minutes.
Despite MsRobyn’s kindness of phrasing that she may never recover, the fact is that she WILL never recover. She no longer has a cerebral cortex. She is not disabled, she is dead; only a husk remains.
The courts have been heavily involved in this case since 1998. It is only as a last ditch and wholly improper maneuver that Gov. Bush got involved.
I wish that I could duplicate this site in its entirety here.
Oh shut the fuck up Pundit. Jeb Bush used that poor woman to make political hay, and he’s rightfully being told where to shove it, although there isn’t very much room with your head already stuck there.
I understand exactly what you said.
and My personal arrangements have nothing to do with it. The situation, as presented, is most worthy of pitting Jeb Bush. So I added on.
All of those living wills etc etc etc will not prevent a court battle. Final wills and testements are fought all the time, why do you believe these wouldn’t be? The law already provided designation for who had the right to determine care - the ‘next of kin’. that didn’t stop the parents either. They remember conversations. So does her husband. Sorry- the husband is still the legal next of kin. Their memories of conversations should not trump his legal rights. (and hers, by the way - she certainly could have written something saying she wanted her parents to make decisions for her, or pointedly saying she wanted heroic measures etc. she didn’t do so)
These parents, poor souls, do not want to see their child die. I understand that. I’m sad for them. But, they seem to believe she will recover for christs sake. so, why, pray tell, do you fucking think that an existence of a living will or signed statement would sway them?? They don’t think she’s in a persisitent vegitative state. so, in their eyes, it wouldn’t even come to play. (yes, I know that they say “we don’t believe that would have been her wish”, but they also are adamant that she would/could recover)
My point was that the law designated who had the decision making power. That was her husband. He made his decision. Her parents disagreed. They had no standing. Bush had even less standing yet he shoved his way in. and you, have even less than that.
My personal decision wrt all of it has nothing at all to do w/those circumstances. My decision to have one, /not have one/ etc. will not prevent sanctimonious assholes from deciding that I didn’t really know what I wanted. It will not prevent a court battle.
Jeb Bush deserves pitting because he shoved his way into a private family matter, wasted time, effort, money for the courts, forced this poor woman to continue in this state, forced the next of kin to continue to pay court costs, etc etc etc when it wasn’t his fucking business at all.
So, my decision to have (or not) some fucking piece of paper that says “this is what I want and who I want to make the decision” can still be trumped by overzealous pushy assed sanctimonious assholes. And I’ll continue to complain about them. The issue of “did she get around to putting it down on paper” is irrelevant, and certainly should not be cause to censure me for complaining about Bushs actions.
It’s been done, and it’s not a bad idea, but it still doesn’t guarantee a damn thing.
Implementing or withholding life support is always a medical decision made by a physician (or, in some cases, paramedic). Theoretically, he is professionally obligated to proceed based on your wishes, and a living will can help clarify that. But even if the pec tattoo directs the doctor to your ass, where you have the entire document tattooed in 12 pt. Times New Roman, the doctor could choose to resuscitate you anyway if the family shows up and is adamant that he does everything. It happens all the time (well, except for the ass tattoo).
This is another problem with living wills. People think that just because they’ve signed a living will, the matter is settled, and they never have to bring it up with the family again. Nothing could be further from the truth.
The best way to have your wishes carried out is to appoint a HCPOA who is level-headed, understanding, and available, and making your wishes very clear to that person and the rest of your family. It still isn’t an ironclad guarantee that your wishes will be carried out, but it removes a lot of the variables.
Conversations I have with my husband usually aren’t witnessed or recorded. I think it’s only reasonable to give Mr. Schiavo the benefit of the doubt on that score.
Also, it’s no one’s business what his religious beliefs are. Just because a person is Catholic or Jewish or Lutheran or whatever is no guarantee that they agree with every position their faith takes. I don’t believe in every nuance of theology Judaism espouses, Airman doesn’t believe in every position the Catholic church takes, and it’s arrogant for anyone to force those positions on another person.
I’ve followed this case for quite a while, and what I see are a group of people in deep denial and a politician looking to score points.
Robin
Final wills and testaments are fought because people cannot accept what the decedent has clearly stated to be his wishes. In this case, the parents are arguing that the patient’s wishes are not clear and therefore the state must err on the side of caution.
Granted, even had she signed a living will, her parents may still have fought it and Mr. Schiavo might still be in the crappy position of fighting his in-laws AND the state on this matter. However, we’ll never know how many parents and spouses DIDN’T call in the lawyers because there was a document, signed by the patient, that said if x happens I want to be allowed to die. It is a pretty powerful statement, IMO, and would be very hard for even a parent to ignore.
TwistofFate and Ms.Robyn, I am a fairly cynical person. However, I cannot see what possible political gain Mr. Bush would enjoy by intervening in this case. I think most reasonable people, including me, think the governor ought to have let Ms. Schiavo die. That doesn’t mean I think he’s an asshole or an egotistical monster. Rather I think that one day he, a father himself, got a visit by two bereaved parents who are desperate to save their daughter’s life. Even though her situation seems hopeless, a few doctors have testified that there is hope. While it’s easy to sit here and be rational and say, “Let the husk die.” it can’t be easy to look into the eyes of two desperate people and say, “I’m sorry. I cannot help you.”
Does that make him a coward? Perhaps. Is he abusing his powers? Possibly. But is he using this case for political gain? Wow, that’s a harsh position to take.
Part of Gov. Bush’s core political base is religious conservatives, many of whom do not subscribe to the belief that one should go gentle into that good night. By intervening in the Schiavo case, and especially in such a public manner, he’s able to show this group that he’s One of Them. I’d be a lot more charitable had he been less public in his support.
Robin
What if the tattoo doesn’t try to lay out actual DNR guidelines, but merely says “see POA on file with <law firm>”? That way I’m not putting an individual’s name on my body, so if I change the person who has POA under these circumstances, I just file new documents, which the tattoo explains how to locate. IOW, all the tattoo says, in effect, is that I’ve made provisions for health care in this situation, and here’s how you find out who my decision-maker is. In a weird sort of way, it’s equivalent to a hyperlink, so I don’t have to put the whole thing on my butt. 
This is the weirdest thing about this debacle. If death for a good Christian means going to Heaven and sitting at the right hand of the Holy Father, why wouldn’t they want to hasten her end? Prolonging the wait before her final reward is cruel in itself, isn’t it?
This is all well and good, but the Court overturned the law on the basis of a separation of powers. The Court concluded that Bush and the legislature could not constitutionally write a law that prevented the same law from being under the final review by the court. It (the Court) did not base the decision on findings related to privacy or the medical condition of Ms. Schiavo.