This is a straw man argument because, as Ed noted above, none of us has ever said there is no other intelligent life.
But there is a big difference between there being intelligent life on other planets and that life coming to visit us and crash into our farms. I happen to doubt that Earth is the only place intelligent life has evolved, but that doesn’t mean I think they’re flying around Earth with their lights on while our government hides information with a massive conspiracy. While I know we aren’t going to change your mind on other issues, I hope you at least see the difference here.
“It’s a very dangerous thing to believe in nonsense.” – James Randi
You guys are right…we are not going to move one another off our current positions…
I do chuckle though at the inconsistancy of those that belittle the idea of “govenment conspiracy”…these are often the same folks that foam at the mouth in a gun control debate, claiming that gun control is a government conspiracy to disarm them so that they can be easily controlled! Come on guys…you can’t have it both ways…either the “government” is trustworthy or it isn’t…you can’t say that they’d NEVER lie about UFOs, but that the bastards can’t be trusted if we surrender our firearms…
Recent evidence of widespread government testing (radiation) on it’s own people is enough for me to believe in government conspiracies…
Come on! Where’s all those CRITICAL THINKING SKILLS that you guys like to spout off about?
Aside from the copyright issues, C3, it’s a five- or six-page article. The Hynek section isn’t even remotely relevant to the Phoenix lights. And as far as “Meanwhile, no base or airport has come forward to identify the five planes that traveled over Arizona seen by
so many people, including Mitch Stanley and his powerful telescope” goes, that must mean they’re Alien Spacecraft, huh?
Meanwhile, the flares turned out to be exactly that, and we’ve got some bozo performing spectrum analysis on videotaped images of lights.
Who said any such thing? You might be interested to know that I’m a member of both the Planetary Organization and the SETI@Home project.
So maybe, as a True Believer™, you can answer a few questions for me:
Where do these alien spacecraft come from (the name of the star system will be satisfactory)?
How is it that, against all odds, these aliens evolved into bipedal, bilaterally-symmetrical humanoids with human-like sense organs?
Why can’t we intercept any of their radio traffic, either local or interstellar?
How have they learned to defy the laws of inertia and momentum when flying their spacecraft within Earth’s atmosphere?
What’s with all the sexual experimentation?
Once you’ve answered those, I’ll accept that aliens are visiting the Earth and abducting humans. Believe me, the day an alien spacecraft really lands on Earth, or we intercept a communication, nobody will be happier than I will be.
Another straw man. I, for one, favor firearms control.
** Phil D. **
“Not only is the world queerer than we imagine,
it is queerer than we can imagine.”
–J.B.S. Haldane
First of all, don’t lump me in with the Gun-Toting-Meat-Eating-People™. I ain’t one of them. Well, maybe a little meat.
The real question of any conspiracy is motive. What use would the Big Ol’ Scary Government have to lie to us about space aliens? What is the angle, so to speak?
On the other hand, wouldn’t it be far more likely that the UFO/alien stories are simply a convenient way to cover up military training operations? Urban Folklore provides and inexhuastible source of cover stories. All the gov’t needs to do to avoid coming clean on anything they’re doing is say “We don’t know anything about this. It certainly isn’t an Alien Spacecraft (wink wink!)” and suddenly we’ve got crackpots appearing on Art Bell claiming that it’s anything from aliens to the illuminati. The real motives, which are often much more “earthly” and dangerous get clouded in conspiracy theory nuts and the media they attract.
Critical thinking, BTW, is the ability to take a hypothesis and examine the evidence that supports it objectively. This often requires ignoring “eyewitness accounts”, as they are almost always biased. So what it comes down to is this: Do you have any evidence of Alien contact on earth? Considering the amount of surveillence equipment this country dedicates to tracking aircraft, wouldn’t evidence of extraterrestrial contact come in the form of recorded data, as opposed to hokey stories and conjectures? If we apply the rule of Occam’s razor and eliminate the unnecessary speculation about UFO’s, what are we left with? What can you infer from a bright flashing light in the sky that indicates that it is from another planet? Because it looks like something out of “Close Encounters?”
Logically speaking, there is no direct leap between UFO’s and extraterrestrials. Leave the wild speculation to fiction, where it is much more entertaining.
We have enough trouble figuring stuff out without people deliberately kicking sand in our eyes.
So I point out how you use one straw man argument, and you go ahead and merrily use another one? <sigh> You know nothing of the gun control beliefs of any of the people here, yet you feel just fine making a sweeping generalization (and, frankly, a blatantly incorrect one as far as my experience goes – the ones who are more likely to believe in one type of government conspiracy (gun control) are similarly more likely to believe in the other (UFOs). Heck, I even know of several groups who combine the two beliefs into one far-reaching conspiracy!
Nobody doubts that there are governmental secrets. But that doesn’t mean that all claims of conspiracy have merit. Each has to be evaluated on its own claims, and, frankly, the UFO claims just don’t stand up to scrutiny.
“It’s a very dangerous thing to believe in nonsense.” – James Randi
It amazes me that the government has the ability to secretly plot with extraterrestrials, brainwash the entire human race, mutilate cattle, abduct Whitney Streiber and others, and keep a lid on the whole JFK-Illuminati- UN-mind-control-AIDS-manufacturing deal, and yet they can’t shut up Art Bell!!!
His guest tonight is Michael Cremo, author of the book “Forbidden Archeology: The Hidden History of the Human Race”
I think that I’ll stay up to listen to what this guy has to say instead of automatically assuming that it is “nonsense”…maybe it will be (nonsense), but I’ll not just assume that because he appears on the Art Bell show.
At any rate, the topic sounds more interesting than a night of memorizing obscure planetary trivia…
Not only will you not believe there are used car salesmen that are dishonest, you keep going back to the SAME used car salesman who cheats you over and over, on the assumption that he won’t cheat you EVERY time.
I tried blind faith once, but I just couldn’t keep my eyes shut.
“When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.”
Hunter Thompson
Slythe, I realize that you were just trying to be cute, but since you brought it up, I’ve always laughed at the used-car salesman stereotype.
My observation is that new car salesman (and dealerships) are doing a much better job of ripping you off than are used car salesmen…
A “new” car depreciates by hundreds or even thousands of dollars as you drive it off the lot, and if you are stupid enough to trade in a vehicle, then you are undoubtedly getting shafted again…throw in those hokey “dealer prep” charges, some overpriced extended warranty, paint protection, underbody sealant, and the average new car buyer comes out a much bigger loser than if they had simply bought a late-model used car at or below bluebook value.
I buy only “used” cars and I’m happy to do so. If you’ve done a little homework and have your mechanic check out the used car, almost every time you can do better with your money than walking in to a dealership and buying a “new” one.
BTW, I too used to think that Dr. Hunter S. Thompson was cool too…when I was a teenager…who did a better job of portraying him on the silver screen, Bill Murray (Where the Buffalo Roam) or Johnny Depp (Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas)?
Evading the issue AND defending used car salesmen? It’s called an analogy.
I’ll try to make this (even) simpler-Art Bell has had so many fakes, frauds, and self-deceivers on his show that to keep watching it in hope that a nugget of wisdom will come forth is the greatest exercise in futility that I can possibly think of. By the way, his latest escapade, being “forced” off the air, shows just where he falls among the fakes, frauds, and self deceivers.
“When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.”
Hunter Thompson
Slythe, Calm down bud, you got the response that you deserved…it’s not exactly like you were trying to take the high road now were you?
As I’ve stated a couple of times now, I am entertained by listening to his show, and NO, I don’t believe every word or even every guest.
I do think that there might be a chance to learn something or to consider a different point of view. Why do you (and others that have replied to this thread) fear that sort of thing? Is it possible that some of you are taking yourself, or your science backgrounds too seriously?
The history of pure science is full of disproving and modifications of once accepted “theories” and scientific “findings”. To think that you and your science buddies have it all figured out already is mighty conceited and at least a tad bit naive…some of what you hold onto as scientific “fact” today will be laughed at 50 years from now…
BTW, I think that deserve an answer to the Thompson question…it was legitimate…and you DO use his name in every post that you make…
There’s a far more interesting show on
public radio every Friday–Talk of the Nation-Science Friday with Ira Flatow. Why don’t you listen in? They also have a website with archived programs.
I give Hunter Thompson’s name because he is the originator of a quote that I find appropriate for this web site, not because I am a fan. After THE GREAT SHARK HUNT, his writing went to hell.
As far as listening tonight goes-if this guest turns out to be another in a long line of quacks, will we get another note from you tomorrow saying,“No, listen tonight, you might change your mind”? This game, which apparently you and millions more want to play, doesn’t interest me anymore.
“When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.”
Hunter Thompson
There was a UFO nut that I used to talk to on FidoNet (this guy was actually a licensed therapist who told people they’d been abducted by aliens – he lost his license). He kept telling us that US Government hit teams were after him (or trying to kill him psychically), but he kept evading them. Then when the process to take away his license started, he blamed that on a government conspiracy as well. I kept asking him, if this conspiracy was so great, why couldn’t they just kill him already. He never did give me an answer…
“It’s a very dangerous thing to believe in nonsense.” – James Randi
No. There is a difference between entertainment and quackery. There is also a difference between being open-minded and being gullible. The problem with all of this conspiracy stuff is that it is not harmless entertainment. Listening to Art Bell isn’t like watching an episode of the X-Files because the guests insist that you believe. Seeing Uri Geller (to take an example of a quack) isn’t like seeing any other legitimate stage magician because a magician admits, up front, that everything is an illusion. It promotes a way of thinking that defies rational judgement in the supposed name of science, and that can be dangerous.
Why dangerous? For the same reason medical quackery can be dangerous. Sometimes people with cancer will blow their savings to travel to South America for a session of “Psychic Surgery”, when conventional treatment may have helped them. Is this harmless? The path of ignorance is not to be taken lightly.
Yes, but not by half-assed conjecture and speculation. Every scientific discovery that has altered existing theory was accomplished through hard work and solid reasoning, and often backed up with empirical data. Science is built from the ground up- creating theories to match the existing data; not the other way around.
Hey buddy, it’s just a radio show…to actually believe that it’s DANGEROUS is psychotic at best…geesh!
You are just going to have to get used to this freaky “free speech” concept that we have here in this country…yes, people are actually allowed to voice ideas that you don’t agree with!..imagine that!
Gosh dang it Eddie, did you have an uncle that was a Heaven’s Gate disciple or something?..what’s the true source of your paranoia?
Hey, how about this?..how about Ed and a few of his buddies form a commision that decides for us all what the REAL truth is and we prosecute…no, strike that…we KILL people that say “dangerous” things that the Ed Commission doesn’t agree with!
Wow. Who said anything about not allowing people to speak? I’m arguing against your belief that Art Bell and his ilk should be taken seriously by everyone, or else “they are a snob.”
Obviously, people here have a big problem with this statement. If you’re posting in an intellectual forum, such as this one, expect to take some heat for insisting that we ought to take this UFO stuff seriously.
I don’t think Art Bell should be taken off the air. He can say whatever he damn well pleases. Likewise, the scientific community can call him an idiot if they so choose.
Defend your theories as you like, but don’t expect to go unchallenged.
I stand by my statement that pseudo-science can be dangerous. Granted, Art Bell’s show is probably not going to cause that much of a problem on a day to day basis, which is why many people aren’t that concerned about it. But it can get out of hand, and I think it is a worthy aspiration of the scientific and intellectual community to combat misinformation. Isn’t that what the Straight Dope is all about?
Heck, listen all you want. Enjoy it. But don’t insist that we take you seriously.
You’re right. The radio show isn’t dangerous. But the people who believe the crap that’s being said on that show can potentially be very dangerous (to themselves and others). I don’t know about you, but I sure hope none of my neighbors are preparing for dooms-day, or get it into their heads that I’ve been sent by the Government (or the aliens) to spy on them.
I find it interesting that C#3 accuses some of the posters in this thread as being paranoid when the man he is defending uses paranoia so well to not only convince his listeners of his guests’ theories but also to sell all sorts of survivalist junk.
Ever notice how he’s always pitching gold as a fool-proof investment. National banks all over the world are now selling off their gold reserves, and driving the price into the ground. Must be a conspiracy to make Art look bad, huh?
Exactly!