Just discovered Art Bell

Oppps…sorry everyone! Ed’s just informed me that this is an “intellectual” forum…

In fact, he said: “If you’re posting in an intellectual forum, such as this one” and he also said: “I think it is a worthy aspiration of the scientific and intellectual community to combat misinformation”

Geesh! I guess I owe you folks an apology! I’m not an intellectual or a scientist like Ed and others are, so I probably don’t belong here among such highbrow topics as:

Booger eating

foreign words for penis

oral sex definitions

shaving vs waxing

talking animals

things that taste like chicken

discontinued McDonalds sandwiches

taxi cabs

etc, etc, etc…

I must have somehow made it past the strict entrance requirement that consists of choosing a handle…

…and here I thought that the intellectuals and scientists were spending their working hours devising new and better solutions for the betterment of mankind…instead I find that they are here, on this very board, fighting my ignorance of enjoying the Art Bell radio show.

Thanks for clearing that up Ed…and again, I appologize for my lack of “intelectuallness” (is that really a word?..perhaps you smart folks will fill me in!)


Contestant #3

Contestant#3:

Thank you for the invitation to listen to Art Bell tonight. I must, however, decline. I spent two years of my life listening to that show, and the only thing I discovered was that the psychology of the believer is most interesting–at least as interesting as the notion that we are being visited by aliens. I

Contestant #3 said:

Oh, look. More straw men from the Contestant. How surprising!

Others have already responded to the bulk of your most recent nonsense, but don’t you ever get tired of arguing with yourself? I mean, you keep putting forth these things that nobody here has said or even hinted at, and then arguing against them. Whenever one of us actually asks you a question or requests evidence or anything, you ignore it in favor of your own meaningless straw men. Why are you so afraid to actually address what we have said?


“It’s a very dangerous thing to believe in nonsense.” – James Randi

“Yeah, because certainly it wasn’t dangerous when people believed in irrational stuff like witches, huh?”

  • PhilD

Hey! I resemble that remark. Honestly, if you people don’t clap, I’ll go poof.

(Witches do exist, Phil. It’s just that, for the most part, we aren’t anything like the Puritans said we were.)

To be fair, I have to credit Contestant #3 with more courage than the guests on Art Bell’s show. Do you really think that any of them would accept an invitation to be interviewed by anybody who might possably challenge them on any of their theories? #3 at least is willing to be subjected to the kinds of questions that we all wish Art Bell would ask.

If you look at his OP, it says that he just discovered Art Bell. I’d be interested to hear his opinion in a couple of months when he’s heard the same lapses in logic repeated night after night.

I have a direct question for you, Contestant #3. Don’t you ever find that when you’re listening to Bell interviewing someone, you just want to scream; “WHY DON’T YOU ASK…”? Do you really think that a person as uncritical as Bell should be dealing with these types of topics?

phouka said:

Witches or Wiccans? As in, people who actually think they can cast spells that have actual effects, or people who follow the Wiccan religion?


“It’s a very dangerous thing to believe in nonsense.” – James Randi

PapaBear said:

I’m afraid I have to disagree with you. There is nothing courageous about the way Contestant #3 has handled this. Sure, we ask him lots of questions and challenge him on his claims, but he ignores those questions and instead posts straw-man attacks on us. We can repeat those questions all we want, but he can continue to happily ignore us and go on his merry way, none the wiser. :frowning:


“It’s a very dangerous thing to believe in nonsense.” – James Randi

“Witches or Wiccans? As in, people who actually think they can cast spells that have actual effects, or people who follow the Wiccan religion?”

  • David B.

Oh, there’s a whole 'nother thread right there.

They’re not mutually exclusive terms. Many Wiccans (like myself) accept “Witch” as a descriptive term simply because we identify with the old Celtic Paganism “Witch” is supposed to derived from (though there is, of course, argument even about the etymology about the word “witch”).

Whether a neo-Pagan prefers Witch or Wiccan has nothing to do with whether or not they practice ritual magic or believe that magic (or “magick” as Crowley liked it) has an influence on the physical world.

For the record, I answer to Witch or Wiccan, I practice ritual magic (though I prefer it without the k), but I don’t believe it has an effect on physical reality. I do it for my own psychological/spiritual benefit.

PappaBear:

Of course there have been times that I have wanted Bell to ask a question that he didn’t, or he asked a question that I didn’t feel was very relevant…so the answer is yes…I’d like to add though, that I’ve felt the same way at times with Larry King, Ted Kopel, etc…

Maybe you are right…maybe after some months I’ll tire of his format and move on to something else…could happen…I do however believe that I’ll always be somewhat interested in offbeat topics and the “unexplained”. Since my childhood, I’ve “sensed” (there you go…how "unscientific of me!) that there’s more to this world than science can readily explain…science does have it’s limitations, you can’t exactly reproduce everything in a lab under controlled conditions and just as I’ve been accused of a lack of “critical thinking”, I think the pendulum swings the other way as well and that some people (you know who you are!) place too much emphasis on “science” and “critical thinking”.

Can we all at least agree that we will never settle a disagreement like this?

Some of you need to realize that there are significant numbers of intelligent, rational, successful people all over the world that have experienced unexplainable phenomena… Personal experience is great for changing one’s point of view. I used to think that whiplash was a faker’s injury until I contracted it myself…I don’t really have any reason to believe in ghosts, but if I wake up tonight to witness an aparition pouring himself a bowl of Rice Krispies I might tend to become a believer, even in the absence of the concurrence of a scientific panel of experts.

Contestant #3

Eh, sorry, but “witches,” as in women who cast spells and fly around on brooms and eat babies, don’t have anything to do with Witches or Wiccans. The two groups of people are related in etymology only, and while the folks up around Salem certainly persecuted “witches,” it’s highly doubtful they knew any Witches.


** Phil D. **
“Not only is the world queerer than we imagine,
it is queerer than we can imagine.”
–J.B.S. Haldane

Open post to all:

Where are all these legitimate questions that I’ve been asked, but have refused to answer? I don’t see them…I see plenty of attempts at putdowns, and lots of scoffing, but where are the questions?

Here’s your chance…

Gather up your “questions” and post them (or re-post if that’s what you think that you’ve done) and I’ll answer each one of them as honestly as I can…

If an objective person were to go back over these 60+ posts, they’d see that I’ve generated many more question marks than have been sent toward me. I just scanned quickly through the first 25 posts and found 0 questions…the first question that I found was someone asking me about the reason behind Art’s hitatus last year, which is really a dumb question because I state in the OP that I’ve just discovered that he exists and I have no background on him…hmmm…

Contestant #3

“Eh, sorry, but “witches,” as in women who cast spells and fly around on brooms and eat babies, don’t have anything to do with Witches or Wiccans. The two groups of people are related in etymology only, and while the
folks up around Salem certainly persecuted “witches,” it’s highly doubtful they knew any Witches.”

  • Phil D.

Oh, yes, Phil, they do.

Modern Paganism didn’t spring into being from nothing. It traces its root to the old Celtic version of Wicca. And those practitioners of Wicca are exactly the people villanized by the Christian church.

The reason the witchhunts (or The Burning Times as Pagans refer to it) specifically used the label “witches” is because there were several centuries of specific persecution by the Christian church towards Pagans and those who identified with the older Celtic/Wiccan religions.

The Church demonized Witches by saying things like they ate babies, made blood oaths to Satan, flew through the night air on brooms, and so on.

They also demonized the male god of the religion, the Lord of the Hunt, by adapting his iconography to portray Lucifer. Prior to the 6th century, Lucifer was portrayed either as a serpent or as a beautiful man. Afterwards, he took on the horns, animal legs and tail of The Lord of the Hunt to persuade Pagans that their god was really a figure of evil.

The Christian Church turned the old religion of Wicca into a boogieman that it could terrorize the population with. In doing so, it distorted the perception of the religion into something completely different from the reality.

Perhaps there were no real “Witches” at Salem. In fact, I think it’s highly unlikely that there were. The persecution of Pagans and conversion of most of the European population to Christianity would have made it very unlikely.

By the time the Burning Times were in full swing, there probably weren’t very many Witches left anywhere in Europe (though pockets of the Old Religion are said to survive in eastern Europe and northern Italy). That didn’t stop the witchhunters from torturing, killing, and maiming people under the guise of protecting the rest from “witches”.

That old distortion is still present today. Usually it doesn’t get on my nerves much. Halloween decorations - which by the way was a Christian adoption of the Celtic Sammhain, a major Wiccan holy day - don’t portray what I know as the real Wicca or real Witches. They portray a bland, bowdlerized version of the distortion the medieval Christian church made of us.

The history of Wicca is not continuous. European Paganism pretty much died out by the 11th century or so and was revived in the late 19th/early 20th century. But that doesn’t mean we don’t or can’t identify with our foremothers and fathers.

'kay?

If you want to debate more, let’s start another thread.

(Dammit, who put this soap box under me when I wasn’t looking?)

Contestant #3 asked:

Well, good thing my boss is out of town, so I have the time to do this. :wink:
(Some of these are not really questions, per se, but they are statements about a lack of evidence on your part that you should have (IMO) responded to if you honestly wanted to try to make your case. Most of these also leave out all your straw-man arguments that, even though several people corrected you each time, you never retracted.)

DSC: “Hard evidence will make your argument. Claims of “conspiracy” will not suffice.”

DB: “I love the way you take a claim made by either Bell or one of his on-air nuts and transform it into fact.”

DB: “Of course, you ignored the main thrust of the message, namely that you took a claim made by either Bell or one of his on-air nuts and transformed it into fact. You also ignored DSC’s point about evidence instead of conspiracy and just called him a snob.”

DB: “And you STILL didn’t answer his statement about claims of conspiracy.”

DB: “Requesting evidence is not a flame. Pointing out flaws in your argument is not a flame. As for “turnabout,” I don’t know what you think you’re turning about, but so far I’ve only seen you turn your back on requests for evidence to back up your claims.”

ed: “We are simply stating that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Why should we believe that there is any evidence of extraterrestrial contact? The burden of proof is on you, my friend. We are simply following the rules of critical thinking by eliminating the most complex and unlikely explanation to a situation.”

DB: “I happen to doubt that Earth is the only place intelligent life has evolved, but that doesn’t mean I think they’re flying around Earth with their lights on while our government hides information with a massive conspiracy. While I know we aren’t going to change your mind on other issues, I hope you at least see the difference here.”

pld: “And as far as “Meanwhile, no base or airport has come forward to identify the five planes that traveled over Arizona seen by so many people, including Mitch Stanley and his powerful telescope” goes, that must mean they’re Alien Spacecraft, huh?”

pld: "So maybe, as a True Believer™, you can answer a few questions for me:

  1. Where do these alien spacecraft come from (the name of the star system will be satisfactory)?
  2. How is it that, against all odds, these aliens evolved into bipedal, bilaterally-symmetrical humanoids with human-like sense organs?
  3. Why can’t we intercept any of their radio traffic, either local or interstellar?
  4. How have they learned to defy the laws of inertia and momentum when flying their spacecraft within Earth’s atmosphere?
  5. What’s with all the sexual experimentation?"

ed: “The real question of any conspiracy is motive. What use would the Big Ol’ Scary Government have to lie to us about space aliens? What is the angle, so to speak?”

ed: "So what it comes down to is this: Do you have any evidence of Alien contact on earth? Considering the amount of surveillence equipment this country dedicates to tracking aircraft, wouldn’t evidence of extraterrestrial contact come in the form of recorded data, as opposed to hokey stories and conjectures? If we apply the rule of Occam’s razor and eliminate the unnecessary speculation about UFO’s, what are we left with? What can you infer from a bright flashing light in the sky that indicates that it is from another planet? Because it looks like something out of “Close Encounters?” "

DB: “But that doesn’t mean that all claims of conspiracy have merit. Each has to be evaluated on its own claims, and, frankly, the UFO claims just don’t stand up to scrutiny.”

PB: “It amazes me that the government has the ability to secretly plot with extraterrestrials, brainwash the entire human race, mutilate cattle, abduct Whitney Streiber and others, and keep a lid on the whole JFK-Illuminati- UN-mind-control-AIDS-manufacturing deal, and yet they can’t shut up Art Bell!!!”

ed: “Who said anything about not allowing people to speak?”

pld: “Yeah, because certainly it wasn’t dangerous when people believed in irrational stuff like witches, huh?”

DB: “Whenever one of us actually asks you a question or requests evidence or anything, you ignore it in favor of your own meaningless straw men. Why are you so afraid to actually address what we have said?”

PB: “Do you really think that a person as uncritical as Bell should be dealing with these types of topics?”

There ya go. Have at it.


“It’s a very dangerous thing to believe in nonsense.” – James Randi

More from Contestant #3:

Which has absolutely nothing to do with whether it is objectively true or not.

It may be a great way to change one’s view, but it’s a rather faulty way as well. There are certain types of hallucinations (hypnopompic and hypnogogic) that may make people believe there is a ghost (night hag, alien, incubus, whatever) in their bedroom with them. But if they were to become a believer in light of this particular personal experience, they would still be wrong. Your mind can play tricks on you. You can be fooled. The reliance on personal experience instead of objective scientific evidence is one thing that draws numerous people to alternative medicine because they think something worked for them, without realizing the way disease and our bodies can work. Reliance on anecdotes instead of objective evidence is a mistake that many people make, but that does not excuse it.


“It’s a very dangerous thing to believe in nonsense.” – James Randi

The ET visitation notion is certainly charming. It would be fascinating particularly if it were true that we are being visited. It would, in fact, be the greatest discovery ever, and I know of no good scientist or science enthusiast who wouldn’t jump on such a discovery in a heartbeat if it were true. But we need to be very cautious about these charming claims precisely because they are charming, and precisely because they represent a deep emotional significance to us. The higher the charm and the higher the emotional stake in the idea, the higher the capacity for self-deception.

ok i listened to art bell last night, and here is a quote that really jumped out at me.
speaking of CSICOP (Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal.
Art Bell and his guest were talking about CSICOP and their heavy handed tactics to keep pseudo science off of the airwaves.

I suppose he thinks they are going to get violent or something.
oh well.

pat

Yeah, I heard that too…he also said that the head of the organzation was there to present him with their “snuffed candle award”…Art said that he asked him if he had ever heard his program…the guy said “no”…geesh!

Right now as I write this they are talking about a new report of a UFO reported by a spokesman for the Brittish Airline Pilots Assoc.

Check it out!


Contestant #3

Ok, I heard the episode where the guy from CSICOP was on as well. Art Bell didn’t tell you everything about that.

Art Bell asked him if he had ever listened to the show. the guy said no, I have never listened to the show, but thats not part of my job, I do research in other areas, the guys who chose you for the award are in other departments.

if you listened to that episode Art Bell made a big deal out of the fact that the CSICOP guy never heard his show, but the guy kept saying, I am not hear to defend the snuffed candle award I am here to talk about the false science you sometimes have on your show. So, really as the CSICOP guy was debunking things about a few different things (I believe one of them was the shroud of turin) Art Bell kept bringing up things the guy would have no idea about, because as he had stated a few times, he had never listened to the show…

so, I think that Art Bell was stating the whole case when he told that story.

pat

Ok, time for me to jump in with C#3 and address some of the things you’ve had to say about Art Bell.

First off, about his leaving the air: He wasn’t “forced” off, as someone stated, he left because he believed there was a threat to his family that couldn’t be solved with him doing his show. “Publicity Stunt” makes little sense beacuse, at the time of his leaving, he was gaining close to 5-10 affiliates every 2 weeks. With that kind of growth, wouldn’t it make more sense to stay than to leave and make people turn the station?

Second, most of the arguments I’ve seen have gone like this: All Art’s guests are “UFO nuts” and have nothing that is worth listening to. Or Art is simply a publicity hound and cares nothing about “real” science just about improving his wallet size.

So here are some facts about that: I will grant all Anti-Art people that he does have on many kooks, David John Oates for one. He peddles ‘reverse speech’, which is basically playing someones voice in reverse and listening for what the sub-conscience has to say. Art has on several “Prophets” who tote dubious futures, and people who photograph “ghosts” (most of which look like camera straps an inch from the lens). But in contrast to these people, he has on people like Michael Cremo, who ideas about the origin of man derserve, in the very least, consideration. http://www.mcremo.com/
And Michio Kaku, a noted theroretical physicist. http://www.dorsai.org/~mkaku/
These are credited scientists, but are outside of the “mainstream”, so they express their ideas on Art’s show, where they know that they will be allowed to speak their peace without ridicule and uninformed, pointless questions.

And to the point that Art never questions his guests ideas, more often than not, his questions for his guests are hard ones that challenge their ideas.

I’ll wrap up this rant, sorry for the length… My point is, just because someone is on Art’s show, their ideas are not automatically wrong, just different. And if you think that Galieio, Columbus, Darwin and Marie Curie were accepted open arms by the mainstream scientists of their times, it’s time for a trip to the library.

Flame away…


Like the man says; don’t take life too seriously, you’ll never get out of it alive – Bugs Bunny

Actually, it sort of did. It traces its real roots back to the late 19th-early 20th century Spritualist movement and some made-up stuff by some anthropologists, poets and philosophers.

Sorry, you’ll have to get in line behind the Jews. And the Turks.

No, it’s because “witch” is a word that predates both Christianity and the Celts, and refers to a conjurer of any sort. Please, don’t make things up.

Sorry, but again, no. The concept of haggardly old baby-eating women who consort with evil spirits predates Christianity by many centuries. People have been thinking of monsters for as long as there have been people.


** Phil D. **
“Not only is the world queerer than we imagine,
it is queerer than we can imagine.”
–J.B.S. Haldane