Just wannano, since your other thread was closed

I thought I would bring it up in here. Why I picked The Pit is surely this is a topic that does not lend to calm debating.

For those that want to know (no pun intended) it starts with this thread: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=101655

His op was as such:

< read some of his comments after people responded >

Since people gave you some “factual” stuff, let me let you in on an idea that crosses every human being in this world, except for maybe a few.

When a woman, in this case the women under the rule of the Taliban have been beaten, killed, maimed and made public spectacles for things minor. Showing their faces, having their skin show in public or being alone in public streets, the woman are not ready to “fight” unless they have the backing of those that can back them.

They fought in many ways that are unseen. They taught their girls to speak English among other academic topics we take for granted. They met secretly to adorn their faces in makeup and in groups of women that would care for one another, even though they should not have under the rule.

This was not the fact that these women didn’t care about their lives or those around them, they were beaten to submission both figuratively and literally.

Yes, many escaped to Pakistan or other places to live a better life. Many were enslaved by their own husbands who believed that the words the Taliban taught were truth. Many teenage boys were taught in Taliban schools and no doubt there were boys who would follow to the T what evil attrocities were taught them.

I think of a group of people that were stripped of all rights, dignity and their property, even the right to live, being the Jews. So, if you think that it’s some kind of weakness within the women of Afganistan you are so very wrong. This is the truth that should smack you upside the head when totalitariasm and geniune extremism happens. This is a reminder to all that even in the year 2001 we have crimes that are almost as bad if not as bad as those that occured during Nazi rule.

They were stripped of their rights, dignity and any property they may have been entitled to before the Taliban came into play. It is not easy for those who have been literally kicked in their teeth, made examples of or even living with a man who can not see that his wife is a human and not property.

I for one am very disappointed in what you have said. If it were that easy for a group of people to overcome such attrocities, then the Jewish peoples of Europe would have not lost people to the terror that was inflicted upon them. I don’t think that this is any different, yet a different set of rules and time.

Yes, we as a nation expect that we all own up and die for our beliefs. But I think your assumption that the women under the ruling of the Taliban own it to the world to stand up. Many have in their own ways, it’s just not obvious to you.

BTW, I have no cites for this, I only know what I have seen or heard on the news in the last few months.

If people are repressed it is very difficult to pull out of that for many.

To end this, never forget what extremist beliefs can do to a group of people. Be that the women in Afganistan or the Jews in Europe. It’s different in scope but human rights should never be considered something to look upon and say “Why didn’t they do something?” It’s real easy when you have a nice little home, a phone, a refridge, a car, a computer, a nice warm blanket, a job that pays you, a country that mostly gives you freedom, a park to play in, a remote to change your tv…I could go on but unless you can honestly say you have lived such a repressive life, I think you need to either shut up or try to learn why people are, involuntarily, placed in such situations.

It can happen to men too, damnit.

I dunno, sounds like an asshole to me. Perhaps he thinks those uppity nigger slaves should have fought a little harder, too? :confused:


I have now read the linked thread.

Geez. :frowning: I’d expect La Principessa to ask a question like, “Mom, why didn’t those Afghan women fight back against the Taliban, all those years?”, but then, she’s only 11. And I’m sure that even at age 11, although she may not fully comprehend what the word “rape” means, she still understands that when the Bad Boys In Charge have guns and love to use them, and you ain’t got nuttin’, not even The Law on your side, you keep your mouth shut. Especially if you have kids of your own to protect.

Rock on, Techie! The Fight Against Ignorance is taking longer than we thought…

Of course, silly. They clearly wanted to pick cotton.

And besides, you know she wants it. Look at how she’s dressed.

Before you jump down justwannano’s throat, you may want to take a look at some of his posting history.
There’s an outside chance that he’s…how should I put this…special.

This guy isn’t looking for debate- he’s intentionally baiting us so we’ll throw logical arguments at him and he can get off watching people get pissed off.

Not even worth dignifing with a response, really.


>> Before you jump down justwannano’s throat, you may want to take a look at some of his posting history.
There’s an outside chance that he’s…how should I put this…special.

Special? So that’s what they call them these days. I’ll have to remember that.

justwannano, you are so special. :wink:

I’ve never really paid attention to any of justawannano’s posts before. This one struck a cord with me though…I kept thinking to myself “dumb ass, what a dumb ass for what he/she said.”

Well said TC, well said.

I have read that women in Afganistan are returning to the careers they were forced to abandon, I wish them the very best. I am so glad I was born in Canada.

I think I’m glad I never went back to that thread last night.

Whadda maroon.

I heard on NPR this morning that there are several women delegates in the group that’s meeting in Bohn to establish the interim Afghani government. They played tapes of interviews with 3 of the women. They have been under the Taliban rule for 22 years and are eager and ready to get back to the lives they left 22 years ago.

You have to imagine that for the women who are in their 20’s and have known nothing but Taliban rule for most or all of their lives, transitioning to a life where they can live without fear is going to be difficult.

I heard another report about some women not being willing to give up their bursa (I think that’s the word for the all encompassing dress thing they wear) Imagine spending the last 22 years being told that your skin showing is shameful and indecent and then try to imagine going outside for the first time uncovered. Imagine walking to work in your underwear. This is how these women must feel. What kind of courage it must take for them to walk outside uncovered for the first time.

I for one think the women of Afghanistan are strong and will be even stronger because of and inspite of the Taliban.

I have heard some interesting reports about the Revolutionary Afghan Women’s Alliance (RAWA), a group of almost preternaturally brave women who hid videocameras under their burqas to tape executions, and suchlike. Can you imagine the constant risk and fear?

gee, matt_mcl, you beat me to it.


Some of the footage is not for the faint of heart.

5 years. The Taliban took power about 5 years ago.

<nitpick> The taliban have only been in power for 5 years </nitpick>

Also, those Rawa women are incredibly brave and should be commended for their struggle to better Afghan lives.

Maybe they don’t all want to give it up??

The Western Euopean obsession with women walking around in next to nothing is not necessarily a more positive way of dress!

Having the choice of what to wear is one thing, but it’s almost as though we are “demanding” that these women thrown off their head-dresses and whack on the hotpants and go dancing through the streets of Kabul, and that their failure to do so it merely another symptom of a repressive regime.

Certainly in our own societies I would suggest that it often takes more courage for a woman to choose to wear the full shebang rather than “give in” to social pressure and conform.

If they want to keep covered up for whatever reason - religious, habit (no pun intended!), keeps the sun off, whatever - then fair play to them, I reckon…
– Quirm

Quirm wrote:

Not in disagreement, just my $.02… :wink:

Choosing to keep their manner of garb, whether it’s as you say - habit, religious, or otherwise probably isn’t the main issue. I would hazard a guess that they find relief simply in the fact that they won’t be killed if they choose not to wear it. And I doubt they have closets full of normal? clothes through which they could choose something else.


So you think that the only alternative to wearing 30 pounds of ultra-heavy robes is to strut around in a bikini?

Whatever happened to the good ol’ standard of jeans and a T-shirt? Y’know, being allowed to, say, show your face in public? And perhaps your arms? Or is that too revealing? Would the sight of an elbow drive the men into a wild orgiastic sexual frenzy?

Cultures change.

We think what we have is best.

Fair enough.

Of course I agree with all your points, but ask a Victorian whether the sight of an elbow (or ankle) would drive the men into a wild orgiastic sexual frenzy and you’d probably be told to go wash your mouth out.

Who knows, in 100 years time people might look back and be shocked at the way we in the west dress now…

Just cos a woman is allowed to show her face in public doesn’t mean she has to! If she has chosen for religious reasons (as many women here in the UK do) to hide her face then that’s her business. I think it’s dead harsh for a religion to proscribe public showing of a female face and the fact that some people feel the need to adhere to that particular tenet, but hey, catholics are banned from eating meat on a friday (which I find equally daft).

I’m not conflating the catholic prohibition on post-pub kebabs with the opression of women in Afghanistan, but it seems to me that the West has kinda got its nose out of joint here - “there’s all these women who are now free to wear what they like, so why aren’t they copying us dammit!”

The key is choice - they have that now. What they do with it is entirely their affair.

– Quirm

Congratulations, you have just raised my estimation of you a dozen points or so!

Prior to the Northern Alliance uprising, the women in Afghanistan had NO choice. Either they wear the glorified tents, or they die. Now they DO have a choice. And choice is good, I believe.

Although if we forced them to walk around in bikinis… well, it’d be a lot more pleasing on the eye, but then we’d be no better than the Taliban.