[QUOTE=Wee Bairn]
So the Bible says there is no currently no Hell?
[/QUOTE]
The Bible states there is a Hell, a place God made for the devil and fallen angels. Some of us are just unfortunate enough to have to endure that level of torment as a person.
He keeps God honest?
Actually, the history of Satan’s role in Judeo-Christian theology does appear rather confused. On the one hand, he’s a rebel against God; OTOH, he seems to work for God part-time, as his jailer. And in the Book of Job, he’s more like a prosecuting attorney – and a member in good standing of God’s court in Heaven.
[QUOTE=kanicbird]
A view is that he was suppose to help guide humanity - in God’s plan, in Genesis God left us and Satan was there. God entrusted and empowered Satan to care for us. Satan went his own route, instead of blessings and life, Satan introduced sin into the world and death. Since man is incapable of not sinning by himself, every death is justified - and Satan’s plan seems to be working. Here Satan (and his demons) just lead man into sin.
Then we see God pour out His blessings on Job, Satan protests as Job is sinless at first, which would ruin Satan’s plan as death is only justified if one sins, God removes the blessing and Satan finally get Job to commit a sin of idol words - enough to justify death - Satan’s plan for man still holds and though God does not like it, there is nothing technically wrong with what Satan has done.
Jesus came, fully man, and will be found sinless, Satan’s plan no longer holds, that death is unjustified and Satan now is condemned. Perhaps expelled from heaven, or that he fell like lighting for one last attempt to get Jesus to sin here on earth.
This also split the kingdoms, before this Satan was acting as a authorized agent of God, though stretching the rules, technically Satan didn’t violate any. So ultimatly God is shown in OT times for sending things like evil spirits, though it is likely that Satan was the one who sent that evil spirit as a decision of his own, within the limits of power set by God.
After Jesus’ death Satan’s plan for humanity has been proven to be flawed and God will eventually crush him and his kingdom. Until then Satan continues to command his demonic forces against humanity and angels as well as accuse us before the throne of God day and night.
Going forward Satan will cause great deception, a false god that will have apparently great power and deceive many. One last attempt to pervert humanity. There will be a war in heaven where the angels of God will defeat Satan’s forces. Satan will be bound for about 1000 years, after which time he will be released then condemned to the lake of fire for ‘ever and ever’ or ‘ages of ages’, either way it’s going to be a very long time
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I don’t know where you got this stuff, but the very little that could be found in the bible is so out of context as to be irrelevent.
[QUOTE=the raindog]
I don’t know where you got this stuff, but the very little that could be found in the bible is so out of context as to be irrelevent.
[/QUOTE]
That’s the magical world of Modern American “Fundamentalist” Christianity in a nutshell.
[QUOTE=Phase42]
I’ve often wondered where the common misconception came from that Satan is in charge of Hell. The Bible makes it pretty clear that Hell (aka the lake of fire) is a place God will create at some point in the future specifically for the purpose of punishing Satan and his followers.
[/QUOTE]
Not true.
The “lake of fire” represents destruction—eternal destruction.
There is no biblical basis for a burning, torturous hell.
[QUOTE=marshmallow]
I don’t know about anyone else, but I found kanicbird’s story much more entertaining than the Bible’s version. Although it seems dickish for God to introduce Satan into the world like that. Or the tree of knowledge. Or maybe he was just a really bad judge of character.
I hope this isn’t too much of a diversion from the OP although it does involve Satan. But I have a question which I’ve never seen answered. OK, here it is: what is the point? Let’s assume Jesus is coming back really soon. What was the point of making souls, putting them in meat suits and then, depending on random genetic, environmental, and geographical happenstance, either rewarding them in heaven or having them burn forever in a lake of fire?
So the timeline goes:
God makes the universe and man
We eat that fruit and sin (smooth move, Eve)
God punishes man
Insert ~4,000 years here
Jesus comes and sacrifices himself, to himself (since Jesus and God are the same)
Insert last 2,000 years here
Jesus comes again and kills everyone, battles Satan
People who believe in Jesus chill in heaven, people who don’t prostrate themselves before the lamb (like me) burn
…then what? An eternity of burning and flying around in the clouds? That was a random 6,000 years for…what? Is God gonna do this again? Are our souls in a perpetual rerun? Is he torturing aliens the same way he’s torturing us? If Satan is such a pissant, why doesn’t God poof him away? It’s because God is a sick puppy, right? We’re ants and he has the galactic magnifying lens? Or is it that Satan is a lot stronger than he’s made out to be and God literally can’t touch him? Is Satan a god unto himself? Is Zoroastrianism right?
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The good news is that the notion of a loving, just God burning people for eternity for the briefest moment of evil (the human life span being shorter than the time to blink relatively speaking) isn’t found in the bible.
There is no [burning] hell. It is a fabrication and fraud, and has more to do with literature and superstitions than it has to do with the bible.
The other lunacy you mentioned is Jesus sacrificing himself to himself. You are right—it’s not just incongruous but absurd.
There is no concept of the Trinity in the bible. Jesus sacrificed himself (out of love and for our benefit and salvation) to his God, not to himself.
[QUOTE=the raindog]
There is no biblical basis for a burning, torturous hell.
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[QUOTE=the raindog]
There is no concept of the Trinity in the bible. Jesus sacrificed himself (out of love and for our benefit and salvation) to his God, not to himself.
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What church teaches that?! I thought the Arian heresy had been dead for more than a thousand years. AFAIK, all Protestant denominations are just as trinitiarian as the Catholic and Orthodox.
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton]
He keeps God honest?
Actually, the history of Satan’s role in Judeo-Christian theology does appear rather confused. On the one hand, he’s a rebel against God; OTOH, he seems to work for God part-time, as his jailer. And in the Book of Job, he’s more like a prosecuting attorney – and a member in good standing of God’s court in Heaven.
[/QUOTE]
Not true.
No where in the bible does it say that Satan was sent by God to do anything. Satan made a challenge after observing Job and his life/conduct. His challenge essentially was that Job only led a blameless life because of the benefits.
God allowed Satan to put Job to the test. But this was Satan’s idea, and there is no indication that God ever sent Satan to someone as a means of testing their integrity.
There is also no indication that Satan was “member in good standing of God’s court in Heaven.”
[QUOTE=marshmallow]
…then what? An eternity of burning and flying around in the clouds?
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No. The vague quasi-Protestant “Satan will o’errun the earth and it will be destroyed” actually gets things a little backwards - which you can see yourself by
No. We are choosing our perpetual direction, which is the important thing. You might be a very bad man, but if you are heading in the right direction, you’ll come out right in the end. Better to be an axe murderer who could have been a genocidal monster than to be the almost-pure beloved of the world who could have been a true Saint. The former may one day become a Saint. The latter is quite likely to slow devolve into a genocidal monster.
You will see something of this in the writings of Saint Paul and the church elders. They oftne talked about minor sins as being of grave consequence and great ones as tiny things, easily forgivable. And so it sometimes is. Men do evil for many reasons, and an evil heart is but one of them.
No. For reasons I won’t go into, Satan cannot even be pure evil as God is pure good (no one and nothing can; evil is a corruption and even Satan must have something which is not, otherwise he’d be pure). Unlike the Hindu thought, there is no such thing as pure evil at all. God will not destroy what is good, even in Satan, but if it becomes rebellious and corrupt enough he will evict it so that it can no longer cause trouble.
Hell, if you will, is essentially the outer fringes of existence, or maybe even nonexistence in its own way. Tis is getting into realities we humans can barely begin to understand; we are like bacteria trying to figure out what a computer is from the outside shape of it, or a drawing of a man imagining what a real man is like. We humans are caught between Heaven and Hell like a battleground.
Now, in point of fact, the King has already told us he’s coming back with an invasion force. But, he’s letting us know in advance. We can prepare the way for him or try and please our oppressors and make out with some of their loot. I won’t go into Christian thought as to why we specifically were chosen, selected, or created to be here. It requires some fundamental beliefs and arguments I don’t fully undertand myself. But after all the vast part of humanity may never be exposed to Satan’s wiles.
Well, maybe I won’t burn forever. Just for a short time.
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton]
Some.
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I was going to link to some lengthy posts/threads that have dealt with hell, but in fact the Wiki link you provided may actually serve as a decent primer.
The fact is, there is no biblical basis for a burning hell to which evildoers go to be tortured endlessly.
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton]
What church teaches that?! I thought the Arian heresy had been dead for more than a thousand years. AFAIK, all Protestant denominations are just as trinitiarian as the Catholic and Orthodox.
[/QUOTE]
My comment was directed towards the bible, not a specific doctrine.
The bible does not indicate a Trinity. The OT Jews were not Trinitarians (and still aren’t!). Nor was Jesus. Nor were the NT Christians.
It’s origin and perpetuation is in contradiction to the bible.
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton]
What church teaches that?! I thought the Arian heresy had been dead for more than a thousand years. AFAIK, all Protestant denominations are just as trinitiarian as the Catholic and Orthodox.
[/QUOTE]
the raindog is a Jehovah’s Witness, one of the very few Christian denominations that completely rejects the Trinity and the divinity of Christ.
[QUOTE=marshmallow]
Well, maybe I won’t burn forever. Just for a short time.
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Actually, you won’t burn at all.
[QUOTE=the raindog]
Actually, you won’t burn at all.
[/QUOTE]
What are the references to burning, then? The use of Gehenna (where the worm doesn’t die, and the fire is not quenched) as a metaphor? Are they just figurative language?
[QUOTE=the raindog]
There is also no indication that Satan was “member in good standing of God’s court in Heaven.”
[/QUOTE]
But, he certainly seems to be welcome there.
[QUOTE=OneCentStamp]
What are the references to burning, then? The use of Gehenna (where the worm doesn’t die, and the fire is not quenched) as a metaphor? Are they just figurative language?
[/QUOTE]
I don’t have a lot of time, but I’ll try. I can tell you that we’ve discussed this before, and there some good posts/threads here on the topic.
In context, Jesus is/was referring to eternal destruction. The various forms of Sheol, Hades and Gehenna (and their various spellings) indicate there is 2 forms of destruction.
One—which is the most common use—indicates death, simple death. This death experiences a resurection—towards judgement. At that point, one is granted either eternal life, or eternal death.
For those who judged adversely, their “re-death” if you will, is eternal. In symbolism that his followers could appreciate Jesus refered to the Valley of Hinnom, an area outside of Jerusalem. This was basically a garbage dump where fires were fed with sulfer continuously. Criminals not worthy of a decent burial were thrown there.
Those texts, taken in their complete context, and with a thorough examination of the original words, indicates that there is no burning hell to which people are sent.
[QUOTE=marshmallow]
Well, maybe I won’t burn forever. Just for a short time.
quote: The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
[/QUOTE]
Hmmm. In the bolded part, couldn’t that mean that the folks who are judged (indicated by the underlined part) and cast into a furnace as “bitching and moaning”? (And not that hell is a place of gnashing teeth.)
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton]
But, he certainly seems to be welcome there.
[/QUOTE]
Are you kidding? Satan was banned YEARS ago.