I honestly don’t think it would be out of line for an employer to tell an employee to remove a racist bumpersticker like that, or find another job. It’s not about “freedom of speech”. I know I would NOT want my customers coming around and seeing something like that at my shop. Period.
I can’t believe people think there’s something wrong with that.
I agree with your motivation, but I’m not sure it’s a freedom of speech issue, especially since it’s also a political message. I think if I was the owner I’d say, “Look, Bob, I like having you here, but your bumper sticker is pissing off people. Normally I don’t care about pissing off people, but when it starts to effect my business, with customers and potential customers, I care a lot. And as an employee here, I would expect you to care, too. So, let’s do this, find another bumper sticker, and if I think it doesn’t go over the line, I’ll pay for it.”
As a pointless side note, the (somewhat uneven, IMO) Comedy Central show Jon Benjamin Has a Van featured a very funny bit called “Jew Them Up!” in which Benjamin and David Cross, dressed as Orthodox Jews (sidelocks and all), attempt to haggle higher prices on purchases.
I bet they just thought it was reverse psychology.
I think what disturbs me most is the incredibly negative view of white people this presupposes. It’s putting forward the idea it was a somehow understandable to hold the view that black people should be denied basic civil rights until that nice Dr King wore a nice hat and suit, and looked all cute and non-threatening (however much of a misreading of history that may be).
No, the point, yet a-fucking-gain, has nothing to do with how “cute” MLK looked! The point is that to end racism (sorry, Hippy Hollow, but I can’t let these endless misunderstandings - including yours - go unanswered) the white people who sterotype or think negatively about black people have got to stop thinking that way. And the way to get them to stop thinking that way is to persuade them to let go of their biases. And the way to get them to let go of their biases is to get them to empathize with and relate to black people in the same way they do with whites. Trust me, when most people of the sixties saw photos like this photo of a young black girl being treated like shit simply because she wanted to go to a better school and get a better education, it created sympathy and support for black people, for the civil rights movement, and for civil rights legislation that would not have been there had a more aggressive, beligerent and insulting approach been used. In fact an approach like that would have had the opposite effect.
There are lots of layers to this issue, and there are lots of layers to white MLK and and the marchers of the sixties accomplished. King and most of the marchers were adamant that civil rights protests be non-violent, and the fact is that in almost every march the demonstrators were dressed in slacks, ties and Sunday dresses. Clearly there was some reason for that, and the reason is that by behaving in non-violent ways and putting forth positive images they increased support for their cause. Everyone knew it at the time, and the demonstrators - and MLK himself - got a lot of good press for taking this approach. It was talked about on television news shows and in articles in popular magazines of the time. It was regarded as both a smart and disciplined approach and the demonstrators were admired even more for sticking to it.
It’s true that as far as what was broadcast on the news at night showed a certain amount of hatred and opposition anyway, but in the meantime images like the one I linked to above were creating sympathy and support among millions of people nationwide for the goals of equality and civil rights legislation. There were approximately a hundred and thirty million people in this country at the time and had they dug in their heels and strenuously opposed civil rights legislation it would never have succeeded in the first place. The politicians who supported it would have been booted out of office at the first opportunity and whatever laws and been written would have been repealed. There simply weren’t enough blacks in the population at the time to get anything accomplished without the support of a majority of whites. But the fact is that a large number of whites did support the civil rights movement, a number which dwarfed the number of hateful bigots being shown on the six o’clock news.
We should have made much greater progress in eliminating racism than we have by now. And in my opinion the reason for that is that no effort whatsoever is being made to bring the two sides together in anything vaguely resembling a positive way. A dialog needs to exist in which each side tries to understand the other and everyone works to bridge the gap that exists between the two cultures - and frankly it’s cultural differences that are the biggest problem. Most people who are considered racist on either side are really disdainful more of the way the other side behaves rather than because of anything genetic. So something has to be done to bring the two cultures together. And simply railing against people for expressing racist sentiments isn’t going to cut it.
So go ahead and fly into hysterics every time uses the n-word, and demand that they lose their jobs and their families suffer the consequences and make sure to do your bit to drive racism underground if you find it emotionally satisfying to do so. But if you really want to end racism rather than simply to create an environment where you can pretend it doesn’t exist, you (we) all need to start trying to come up with ways to get both sides to think more highly of each other.
On this we agree. But I feel the problem has been people who keep suggesting we slow things down and not offend anyone.
Seriously, it’s 2011. Do you think a guy driving around with a nigger bumper sticker just needs a little education? That if somebody sits him down and quietly explains that nigger is considered an offensive word by many people, he’ll say “Wow, I never knew that. I certainly didn’t mean to offend anyone. I’ll go remove that bumper sticker forthwith.”
I didn’t say slow down and not offend anyone. In my opinion you can go ahead and rail at people all you want. I don’t think it accomplishes much of anything that’s positive, but you can go ahead and do that as far as I’m concerned. But I do think that at the same time we need to start trying to take steps to bridge the gap between the races in terms of the troublesome attitudes and perceptions each has about the other. I don’t see a genuine solution otherwise.
I’d love to hear how “Don’t Re-Nig in 2012” has anything to do with the way anybody acted.
Is it really not clear to you that I’m talking about problems of race and how to go about dealing with them on a national scale?
If the bumper sticker was the only problem I wouldn’t care what anyone did.
Scale it up as much as you like; the country’s population of racists is still a bunch of people like the guy with the bumper sticker.
And since our national racist problem is caused by a lack of understanding as exemplified and probably created by the behavior of the shrill white liberal crybaby lobby, obviously, this one example of racism has something to do with that. Right? I mean, it isn’t just a completely unrelated thing that you started talking about.
No, they aren’t. Some are, but there are levels of racism reaching all the way from barely there to extreme. And the higher up from the bottom you go, the more success you’ll have in getting through. Plus, as George Wallace demonstrated when he said about his stand in the schoolhouse door: “I was wrong. Those days are over and they ought to be over,” even extremists can have a change of heart.
Who said that? Racism far predates the shrill white liberal crybaby (your term) lobby. What I said was that they weren’t making things better and perhaps were making it worse. I didn’t say they created it.
Yes, it’s exactly what you said: an example. And what it’s an example of is the kind of reaction I don’t think is helpful.
Frankly I’m beginning to think that you have no perspective on this issue at all and it’s a waste of time trying to talk to you about it. So far you haven’t shown the slightest ability to understand what I’m saying, even if only to disagree with it. I’m not going to keep arguing with you over things I haven’t said.
That is a pretty unfair response. I’ve read and understood every word, god help me. I’ve even responded to most of what you’ve said specifically, which is something that you certainly can’t say. And it’s a very simple question I’m asking you.
Here’s a recap: Drain posted her OP. The very first thing you said was
So you set the parameters about what you wanted to talk about. You fired your opening salvo, viz. we still struggle with racism in society because you people bitch and moan and get angry about racism instead of being dignified and respectful like Martin Luther King wanted. Which let’s be honest, you’re saying, essentially, it isn’t racists’ fault they’re racist, it’s liberals’ fault. The only attempt you made to tie this to the actual topic at hand was saying “people like the OP.”
So I asked, for the first time, how bumper sticker guy’s racism was caused (in large part, remember) by “people like” Drain Bead, which was a really obvious question to ask. You didn’t respond, probably in part because everybody wanted a piece of you, and probably in part because the answer is also obvious. Instead, you expounded more about how Drain Bead’s approach makes racism worse, as opposed to MLK’s, which wouldn’t. And some people took some cheap shots at you, including calling you a racist, and that’s all you’ve responded to, pretty much. Which probably I would do the same.
That’s it. The only point you’ve been making is that MLK would have done things differently, and it would have worked better, because it was inclusive and loving, not divisive and hateful. And I even went so far as to be literally the only person here who said you had a point, for what it’s worth. Like a little puppy dog - I couldn’t even comprehend your point*, but I was lapping that shit up in case you might scratch me behind the ears. Then you said again, in like 2500 words, that we should have basically beaten racism by now, exact liberals are just fucking lunatics who can’t control themselves, and that’s why we haven’t. So I asked again, since it’s a super-obvious question to ask at that point, how a reaction to a thing can cause the thing in the first place.
So there’s my perspective. Number of posts you’ve had in this thread: some number. Number of those posts that were you attacking Drain Bead’s reaction rather than addressing the guy’s pre-existing racism as a problem unto itself: that same number again. Extent to which you’ve acknowledged the point that the racism in question has, to the un-crazy-trained eye, nothing to do with any liberal’s behavior and so your jumping in to blame us for it is completely out of left field and just frankly god-damned made up: not at all.
*Yeah, because I’ve been just fucking drooling all over myself in bewilderment over your posts… like what are you, fucking Heidegger, that it takes a certain level of intellect to really parse what you’re lecturing us about? The shit ain’t complicated. I get it. See, I was respectful all the way until the end, but then I read your post again.
Of course this isn’t clear to anyone. We’ve all been talking about something that was done by one particular individual. But now after six pages of talking about a bumper sticker you suddenly want to pretend that we’ve been talking all along about the issue of racism in general.
Starving, are you going to answer any of my questions for you or are you going to start ignoring me because you can’t make an argument like the other thread? You are a cowardly debater, this is not the first time you’ve started quoting me and then refuse to respond.
I’m don’t think that anyone is saying it’s deserved, just that the reality is that certain dress reinforces the negative views someone has and another type of dress undermines those views. That seems to be understandable, without condoning those views at all.
You may want to explore other explanations. Based on his posting history, and willingness to put forth minority views—in the very thread even—“cowardly” doesn’t seem to fit.
Bloviating? Obdurate? Bibulous?
Textual diahrrea where someone blathers on and refuses to acknowlege the points that undermine their idiotic arguments a brave debater does not one make.
That was actually funny.
