Justice Stevens Says Gun Ownership a Threat to Our Constitutional Structure

They may, but handguns are specifically protected by the decisions in these cases, requiring the overturning of at least part of cases (and really, the whole point) that incorporated an Amendment. Not likely.

Abortion is not an Incorporated Amendment.

How so?

I’m pretty sure, bordering on certainty.

Abortion rights are deemed an outgrowth of incorporated rights…several of them.

If abortion is not protected in that fashion then neither is the right to self defense found in Heller/2nd Amendment.

4th Amendment: FISA wiretaps, National Security Letters (search and seizure)

6th Amendment: Deemed a terrorist? Good luck getting a trial (speedy trial by jury)

8th Amendment: Torturing people (cruel and unusual punishment)

Add in:

5th Amendment: Miranda was gutted recently (self incrimination)

My counter is that the UK probably has the culture closest to the US, which is why the accusation of it being a “farcical” comparison to be baseless.

I’ve already stated that I’m on the fence on this issue; I’ve got as little bias as just about anyone. In the arguments on pro/anti gun the biggest unanswered question is why does the US–the richest country in the world (which is likely the biggest factor in gun deaths)–have a homicide rate that is many times the rate of the other Westernized countries?

But not the highest.

I’m not sure if I should include central and South America as “western”, but leaving those off:

Higher homicide rates within “western” countries include Russia, Mexico, Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine, Georgia, Estonia, Turkey, Albania.

This link does not seperate out “gun” homicides from other types. So:

Higher gun violence for “western” countries include Belarus, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Mexico, Moldova, Poland, Slovakia, Ukraine.

Not all countries in the first link appear on the second linked list. No entry for Turkey, for example.

In that last link, it’s interesting to read the caveat

As well as the section on the US rural versus urban rates.

In short: I think there are multiple factors involved in the likelihood for gun violence, over and above mere gun presence and/or ownership.

Sure, this Hitler person sounds like quite the character. Do elaborate. Spare no detail.

YOu might need to look at it in a different way. Go beyond the headline numbers and look at the detail.

I saw a study about 10 years ago (I cant find it now) that analyzed homicides by ethnicity. It found that for every ethnic group among immigrants that move to the United States, the homocide rate of that group in the United States was LOWER than that same group in their native land.

In other words, Canadian immigrants living in the United States, actually have a lower homicide rate than the homicide rate in Canada.

Japanese Americans commit less murders, have a lower homicide rate, than the Japanese in Japan.

Kenyan, South African, Ethiopian, Sudanese, Nigerian, and Tanzanian immigrants living in America commit fewer murders than Kenyans, South Africans, Ethiopians, Sudanese, Nigerians, and Tanzanians still living in Africa.

Pakistani’s living in America commit fewer murders than Pakistani’s living in Pakistan.

Danish people who immigrate to America commit fewer murders than the Danes in Denmark.

…and so on and so forth. If you search you can probably find that or a similar study by ethnicity. I have seen at least a couple of similar studies dealing with Canadians and Japanese, both of them have lower homicide rates if they live in America. I also know/saw a separate study that the FBI has done comparing/confirming statistics of the Japanese living in America , and they found Japanese Americans living in America to have a very small homicide rate, even smaller than Japan’s rate of Japanese living in Japan.

It was kind of interesting that when Canadians move to Florida(where they can buy and carry guns) they commit much fewer murders than the Canadians they left behind in Canada who have less access to guns.

Of course, bottom line: I really dont care what other countries do, its none of my business, and they can do whatever they want. I have had friends and relatives tell me enough over the past 70 years about how dangerous Western Europe, Mexico, Eastern Europe/Soviet Union, etc have been at various times, that I will feel safer carrying a gun in America any day than the stories I heard.

(Note that different countries count “homicides”, or what is homicide, differently, so international comparisons have to be studied closer than just looking at the numbers on the bottom )

Um, what the fuck does that mean?

As a Canadian immigrant living in the US, I have committed exactly the same number of homicides and I did when I lived in Canada. I’ll check later but I’m pretty sure my wife has also committed exactly the same number of homicides.

Do you realize when you said, “Canadians living in Florida” you were talking about snowbirds? That’s what we call Canadian seniors that spend the winter in Florida.

So what I heard you say was that Canadian seniors commit fewer murders in Florida than they do in Canada. Does that make any sense to you?

Were you expecting the opposite? That Canadians were eager to go to the US so they could shoot someone?

What I CAN tell you is that nobody except an American citizen can feel as safe from foreign invasion, as safe from an attempted government takeover, as safe from criminals on the street if I am walking to my car with my revolver handy, and as safe from the sounds of intruders breaking into my home in the middle of the night knowing my 12 gauge shotgun will stop anyone.

There is just no compare. The 20th century has proved that there is no other place in the world as safe, there is no other people in the world as safe as armed citizens in America.

I did not say anything about ages, I never saw any studies that broke down how much crime is committed by Canadian-American immigrants - by age.

What I am telling you is that “when Canadians move to the United States” where rifles, shotguns, and handguns are all of a sudden readily available, when they can legally buy and carry guns…when they moved to a country will much FEWER gun laws and FEWER gun restrictions …when they are surrounded by MORE guns…when they can buy as many guns as they want…

They…

just…

dont…

murder people!!!

I know this is an extremely small sample, but can I assume that the combined rate of homicides committed by you and your wife total zero?

If so, then you should clearly see my point.

I dont care what your age is. The fact of the matter is that Canadians/immigrants who move to the United States where guns abound commit fewer murders than the people in their former gun-restricted lands who are still there commit.

What the fuck good is your revolver when the guy behind you has one too? Now tell me do you feel safe or do you feel paranoid? What you described isn’t what I would define as “feeling safe.”

You know who else a 12 gauge shotgun will stop–you. Keep in mind the intruders breaking into your house are also heavily armed. If you need a 12 gauge shotgun nearby at all times, “safe” isn’t what you’re feeling. It’s exactly the opposite. Oddly enough, it’s EXACTLY what I said in the OP:

“You feel more free because you can own a gun.”
“I feel less free because you can own a gun.”

Or did you think you were the only person with a gun?

You are scared to walk to your car, you are scared of people breaking into your house, and you think a gun will help. Eventually, either nothing at all will happen making the gun rather useless, or your revolver and shotgun will end up on the blackmarket used by the next group of home invaders–thanks.

USA!
USA!
USA!

Wait, is this another case of Poe’s Law?

Truly ridiculous. America is hardly the nation on Earth with the lowest violent crime rate. And your precious guns don’t protect you from the government in the slightest.

Nor do they protect you from street criminals; all they need to do is draw first and they win, and being the aggressors they will. Draw your own pistol and they’ll kill you; contrary to Wild West fantasies you can’t outdraw someone who has his gun pointed at you already.

And you are also ignoring the fact that having guns at home makes it very easy for someone to be killed by accident.

Why would an otherwise non-murdering individual suddenly walk off the plane and go on a murderous rampage?

This is the most retarded thing I have ever read.

Tell me, do you have a corresponding stat that says Americans emigrating to other countries commit more murders? Do they arrive in London, freak out that they can’t buy a gun, then uh, get a gun and kill people?

Or better yet, are you going to suggest that Americans emigrating are suddenly the victim of muggings and home invasions at a high rate because–gasp–they are unarmed!

You were doing better using Hitler in your arguments.

And for the record: the population sample of Canadian immigrants in the US is extremely different then the population of Canada as a whole. Canadians that immigrate to the US are by and large professionals, or retired, not exactly the criminal underbelly of Canada. And at the very least, US customs rejects people with criminal convictions, and green card holders require a full FBI background check. It’s not about guns or gun availability, the process of immigration weeds out the most likely murderers.

But I do look forward to using that statistic in the next immigration debate.

I have a natural educators tendency. Seeing someone clearly not taking the effort to think is, simply, annoying. Look at the argument that you two are trying to make: “We need to decrease legal guns to lower crime. Comparing legal guns to crime rates doesn’t count.” How does one make that argument with the intention of being intellectually honest?

I’ll fully well agree that looking at legal gun ownership and comparing that to crime is farcical, but that’s my point. If there’s no connection, and you’re agreeing there’s no connection, then why are you concerning yourself with legal gun ownership? If your goal is to decrease crime and to decrease illegal gun ownership, you need to show some evidence that there’s a connection between those two and legal gun ownership if you’re going to make the case that we need to decrease legal gun ownership. This isn’t an issue of guns and crime. It’s an issue of basic logic. I could plug any two, random words in there and the point would be the same. You’re making an argument where your points of debate are directly conflicting each other.

And let’s also not forget that we do have data about total gun ownership, including illegally owned weapons. Where there’s a gun death, there was almost certainly a gun. I’ll as well admit that where guns are available, people will prefer to use them as a means of committing murder so where I see more gun deaths, I’m happy to assume that there’s a fairly direct correlation with total gun ownership.

So, graph #1 - Legally Owned Guns (horizontal) vs. Total Guns Owned (vertical)

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4181904/gunsvgundeath.png

Is there a relation? I don’t see it.

Graph #2 - Total Guns Owned v. Homicide

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4181904/gundeathvhomicide.png

Do I see a relation? Only if I include the US. But given the relationship between poverty and crime, I’d certainly want to look at how the US stands on that front before accepting that the US is in the upper right due to gun ownership rather than due to social inequality.

Graph #3 - Gini Coefficient (lower is better) v. Homicide

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4181904/ginivhomicide.png

As expected, we see the US out away from the pack. If we take out the USA from graph 2, all that’s left is an amorphous blob. And given that we’ve already determined that comparing between countries with different rates of poverty is shady, let’s go ahead and look at a vertical sample (i.e. with roughly the same gini coefficient) from the center of our European blob in graph 3.

Graph #4 - Total Gun Ownership v. Homicide for Similar Income Distribution

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4181904/gundeathvhomicide2.png

Do you see a link? Canada maybe bumps the right side a bit higher. But really, Switzerland has more guns than Canada and half as many homicides. The margin for error is so wide that applying a line is really just being dishonest. But more importantly, regional differences are obviously of more importance than gun law. What’s the difference between Canada and Switzerland? Culture? Who knows. Ultimately, if you actually want to accomplish something, you’re better off to figure out what that difference is and apply it to the US.

YOu obviously have no understanding at all. I am not scared.

You sound like the kind of person who “thinks”(?) when someone else is all bundled up in winter gear for a days adventure out in the snow that they are cold.

Nope! The fact of the matter is, that the person who is all bundled up is not the cold one.

If they insist on going around in winter gear at all times; indoors, outdoors, and at home, and make a point about telling people about how they are in winter gear at all times, then yes I think they probably are quite cold.

YOu can make up all the excuses you want. You can grab at any straw you want. You can try to give a 100 different explanation “why”,

but the bottom line is: that ex-Canadians who immigrate to the gun aplenty United States have a LOWER homicide rate than the Canadians who remain in Canada which has stricter gun laws.

Ditto for Kenya, Japan, and everywhere else.

You can argue all you want, and the best that you are going to come up with is the realization that the availability of guns and the right to carry concealed guns in the United States does NOT!!! cause a higher homicide rate.

I love these threads. The courts have not been kind about catering to the fears of the antis this last decade or so. It tickles me when they post to threads like this one as if they were still politically relevant.
The golden age of gun bans is done. You shot your wad in the Clinton era. Mainly what you accomplished was to make gun owners organized, militant, and vigilant. We’ve driven home to your politicians that gun control is political suicide for the party that pushes it.
We may humor you in threads like this by playing “let’s pretend your opinion matters,” but you lost long ago.
Get started on that ammendment, maybe. Otherwise you are a footnote in a history book.

There are 2 kinds of people.

Those who want to understand, and those who just want to argue.

Unfortunately most people here at this time do NOT want to understand why the United States and Americans are the safest people in the world.

I dont mind helping out those people from other counties who are honestly curious as to why the United States is so great, but I wont waste any more of my time with those who do not want want to understand and just want to argue.

Good bye.