Juvenile Justice?

The growing trend of treating our nation’s children as adults has seemed very alarming to me. Many people are under the mistaken impression that juveniles are only tried as adults under extreme circumstances. This does not appear to be the case. A new study has been conducted and released that looks at these issues and compares the treatment of our minority youth. You can find a summary here. http://www.buildingblocksforyouth.org/ycat/ycat.html

In our zeal to “solve” the nation’s crime problem we are sending our children to prison with hardened adult offenders. Any logical person should be able to see that this method is not going to work. Not only this but as usual our minority citizens are in almost all instances receiving the lion’s share of hardship metted out by this new trend.

Needs2know

It seems to me that the purpose of trying minors as adults allows the courts to give them more prison time. If a criminal is in jail for more time he has less time to spend commiting crimes. That seems logical to me.

You are assuming we are talking about criminals…when we are really talking about children. Try reading the report.

Needs2know

If they are not criminals why are they being arrested and put on trial?

Ok here goes…let’s just set up a little personal scenerio here and see what you think…

You have a 15 year old son. He’s out one night with his buddies and he’s caught with pot. Is he a criminal or is he still just your son? So now the authorities have a choice. It’s up to their discretion whether or not they send him to the local juvenile facility or to jail until you can come bail him out. Because legislation has been passed in your state leaving the decision to charge him as an adult up to the police or local prosecutor, not a judge. Do you believe he belongs in a cell with a couple of adults, even for a few hours? What if you are black or hispanic, then the probability that he will cool his heels in an adult facility goes way up. But then he’s just a criminal right and he deserves to be exposed to bigger a better criminal behavior?

Once again read the report, in many of these cases the charges are dismissed etc. indicating that the severity of the offense did not warrant adult incarceration or that the case itself was not valid. Throwing blanket legislation over this problem is not going to prevent us from raising a nation of criminals. It is simply going to expose our children to more danger and cost us tax dollars.

Needs2know

Good topic, I don’t hink it’ll last long though. I’ve long since recogniized that most refuse to “see” the situation for what it was, until it hits home.

Drug war anyone?

If my son is arrested for a serious offense such as drugs I would expect him to be treated like someone who has commited a serious offense.

Well, there are two debates here…1) Youth Crime, and 2) Is having ‘Pot’ a real crime.

Lets assume that Number 2 is a ‘really bad’ crime. If that was the case, then he is my son, but then he is now a criminal and should pay the price.

All to often do we let emotions affect our judgement. If some one breaks the law, then they should be punished accordingly.

If it were you’re son, you’d start thinking, “He’s just a kid” where as I’d think, “He’s a pretty stupid kid to be doing things that he knows are wrong.” If he didn’t know it was wrong, then the parenting become a factor…but we will leave that argument alone. (No, I am not implying ANYTHING personal by this statement, I’m speaking in general terms.)

So, with all that, your question is not fair with out also asking, “…and if it was MY son who was arrested for commiting a crime how YOU feel.” You’ll find you get a different answer based on who is involved and the point of view.


I’ve had this talk many times with my wife. She has always said, “If he commited a crime, like murder, I’d still be there for him.” I said, “If he does kill someone, then he get’s whnat’s coming to him.”

I’ve taught my kids right from wrong, that they should respect those that are older and wiser than themselves, to speak out if they feel they are being wronged. They know full-well what is allowed by law and what is not. If they go and break the law after knowing this, then he is at the mercy of the court.

Actually reading the OP, I believe Needs2Know is asking three questions, or maybe two depending on your stance on crime control.

  1. Are laws becoming increasingly harsh on juvenile?

  2. Will treating juveniles harshly result in a better juvenile CJS?

  3. Are the harsher punishments falling disproportionately on minorities?
    Now I believe number 1, can be answered with a yes. I can also probably find dozens of studies that support number three (Ive got the time,if you want em, I’ll track them down), but I’m sure there are many here who would disagree with it. So I think the debate here is one numbers 2 & 3 above.

Umm…I’m not sure I agree with all of that.

1. Are laws becoming increasingly harsh on juvenile?

To this question I would say no. But I believe the question should be “Is the legal system becoming increasingly harsh on juvenile?” In that case, I’d say yes…but I don’t think that is a bad thing.

2. Will treating juveniles harshly result in a better juvenile CJS?

Probably not. Does treating adults harshly result in a better adult CJS? Of course not.

Here in Toronto, they just set a repeat offending pedophile back into the public. (He’s has been thrown into prison twice for interfering with kids. Letting him out is crazy if you ask me.) They gave the general location of where he was living, but not the exact address as to where he was, so essentially, he is free, and the parents are now holding their kids prisoner in their own house from fear of this individual.

Some say that the address should be given out, and others say that it should not and we should respect his privacy…I personally believe that we should keep him locked up.

  1. Are the harsher punishments falling disproportionately on minorities?
    This is a tricky one to answer for fear of ticking someone off. I would have to say yes…but it does not apply to just visual minorities. There are cases where women get lesser sentences than men when committing the same crime.

Heck…look at the OJ trial! Now I’m not saying they let him off because he was of a ‘visual minority’, but I believe that part of the decision was to avoid another mass riot because there would be those that would see a guilty verdict as racially motivated.

First of all I don’t think there is much of a debate at all. Currently there is a bill in Congress that would reduce the age nationally to 13 for a child to be tried as an adult. This same bill would take the discretion of charging children from the hands of a judge and place it in the hands of prosecutors. (And we all know that prosecutors never do anything that isn’t politically motivated. NOT!) So debating point number one is a non-issue. It’s happening.

As I’ve said before read the report that I linked. This trend goes against 100 years of our country’s history. We have up until recent years attempted to protect and nurture our children. But politics and a media has gotten the American public so terrified of crime that we have started to turn on our own children.

Point two carries very little debate also. Children who are incarcerated with adults do not receive any kind of rehabilitation or intervention. Not to mention the fact that they are 500 times more likely to commit suicide, 200 times more likely to be sexually assaulted, and so on and so on. Guess these kids will really learn their lesson.

Why must we debate point 3? Does anyone actually believe that blacks commit more crimes simply because they are black? Or is it just easier on everyone’s conscience to tell themselves that? This is addressed in the link.

I think this trend toward treating our children like criminals is sickening. Instead of doing something about our own failings as adults and a civilized society we transfer our guilt onto our children. If our society is producing a nation of youthful criminals what does that say about us, bloodthirsty adults?

Needs2know

I agree…I think people commit crimes because they are idiots, not because of their race.

This is where I disagree. I feel that ‘if the shoe fits…’. If a youth commits a crime, he is a criminal. (Age is a factor of course. A 6-year-old stealing a candy bar would not qualify as a ‘hardened criminal’. Sure they probably knew it was wrong, but I’m sure they know that sticking a fork in an outlet is wrong too, but I’ll bet that they tried it at least once aswell.) Punish the kid according ly and hope they got the message…

The problem today, from what I see personally, goes along with your comment of “If our society is producing a nation of youthful criminals what does that say about us, bloodthirsty adults?”.

Now a days, it seems that many parents refuse to discipline their kids and call it ‘building self esteem’. Now I’m not talking about beating the kid, but doing a little more than saying, “You stop that…that is bad.” Is needed. I believe that even this is a fall back excuse for lazy parents who just couldn’t be bothered dealing with them.

[digress]
There was a situation with my son at the local park where another kid (who is constantly causing problems in this area.)started a fight with him. We broke it up and went and reported the incident to his parents.

His mother stood there with a ‘deer-in-the-headlights’ look on her face…she said, I sent him to his room for tem minutes, what else can I do?”

I personally would have grounded him for the next few days…cut off his TV access…and if was severe enough, tan his hide…

But this is an example of when parents let their kids get out of control and after a time, will never be able to regain it.
[/digress]

So I wouldn’t say that the youths that commit these crimes are a product of ‘blood thirsty’ adults, but a definite factor is lazy adults.

My 2 cents.

You mistook my comment. We are bloodthristy because now we have begun to “go after” our children and treat them as adults. We are simply transferring our guilt for having failed them onto them. Because a child that is a career criminal has shit for parents usually. Statistically they come from poverty and or abuse and neglect. Plenty of statistics along these lines to back that up. Most adult criminals, particularily the violent ones come from childhoods of abuse and neglect. So logically what would be the better thing to do, write them off and send them away to be abused by the system or intervene in some way perhaps turning them around?

Needs2know

I guess it’s OK to do this, couldn’t get it to link right.

USA TODAY - AUGUST 25, 1999

                  Juveniles deserve a second chance
                        By Terence Hallinan

When I was a teen-ager, I was kicked out of school and arrested several times for fighting. A
juvenile court judge eventually got so tired of my misbehavior that he literally kicked me out of
my home county of Marin, Calif.

During my “banishment,” I worked as a longshoreman and attended the University of California,
Berkeley. There I was able to channel my pugilistic ways into a spot on the varsity boxing team,
falling two bouts short of making the U.S. Olympic team. Over time – which is what the juvenile
court gave me – I went on to practice law for 20 years, was elected to two terms on the San
Francisco Board of Supervisors and, in 1996, was elected San Francisco’s district attorney.
Since I took office, violent juvenile crime is down 27% in San Francisco – the sharpest decline
of any large county in the state.

A unique perspective on court system

Yes, I appreciate the irony. But as a prosecutor and a graduate of the juvenile court system, I also
believe I have a unique perspective on the court’s operation – and a personal investment in
maintaining its core tenets.

Founded 100 years ago by a group of reform-minded women led by Chicago’s Jane Addams, the
juvenile court was part of a series of century-shaping changes in how our country viewed
childhood. Others included compulsory, universal education, child labor laws and the creation
of parks and recreation spaces for children.

The court’s founders viewed childhood as a sacred time during which adolescents needed the
guidance of caring adults. They were shocked to find at the time that hundreds of children as
young as 8 were jailed alongside adults. So they fashioned a court that separated kids from
adults, focused on individual care and rehabilitation, as well as fair punishment, and maintained
youths’ confidentiality so that youthful indiscretions didn’t ruin adult promise.

Yet, as it celebrates its centennial, this American invention never has been in more jeopardy. A
juvenile crime bill sponsored by Rep. Bill McCollum, R-Fla., would allow 13-year-olds to be
jailed with adults, would curtail confidentiality protections, would create a mandatory
sentencing scheme for kids, and would give prosecutors sole discretion, with no judicial
oversight, to try juveniles as adults in federal court.

Likewise, an initiative on California’s 2000 ballot sponsored by former governor Pete Wilson
would also strip judges of decision-making power over whether certain juveniles should be tried
as adults, and abolish confidentiality protections. These proposals follow actions by 41 states
that passed laws between 1992 and 1995 making it easier for kids to be tried as adults.

There is no question that many of us profiled in the new book Second Chances simply would not
be where we are today if such laws were in effect when we were young. The book, published by
the Justice Policy Institute, a criminal justice think tank, recounts the stories of 25 juvenile court
“graduates.” They include politicians and probation officers; academics, attorneys and authors;
students, stockbrokers and salespeople; firefighters and football players; and judges and juvenile
counselors. As kids, every one of us was in trouble with the law; as adults, we’re all productive,
successful contributors to society.

Don’t take away discretion from judges

Permanently staining the lives of young people due to youthful arrests is harmful and
counterproductive. Taking discretion away from judges to make individual decisions about
young people is a form of cookie-cutter justice that ignores their problems and strengths, to
everyone’s detriment. And jailing young people with adults is inhumane, dangerous and
tantamount to giving up on kids – something we should never do.

In San Francisco, we’ve taken a bite out of juvenile crime through a balanced approach that
combines community-based programs to help kids turn their lives around with fair but certain
prosecution of youthful offenders. I have no problem fighting to lock up a kid or to have him tried
as an adult if it is necessary to protect public safety. I also have no problem letting a neutral
judge make the final decision after having heard all of the evidence. But a system that focuses
only on punishment and ignores rehabilitation is ineffective and morally bankrupt.

On its 100th anniversary, we need to reinvigorate our juvenile court system so that it can address
today’s problems with solutions relevant to the 21st century, not hamstring them. Juvenile courts
should hold youths accountable for their behavior without crippling them forlife. They should
continue to give kids a chance to make a better choice – the same chance that I and countless
other young Americans had during this century.

Terence Hallinan is the district attorney of the city and county of San Francisco.

Ok…I gotcha now…I guess you could call it a back-lash effect.

These parents thought they were doing good, but the kids ended up turning out rotten. (Not actuall the fault of the kids in that respect.) Then when the parents see that the kids are not doing what they were expecting, these parents, (Or society as a whole) jump all over them and make them out to be absolute hoodlums and then tell the legal system to do something about it.

Am I following ya? =)

it

I have absolutely zero problem with juveniles tried as adults when the situation calls for it. The last bit is the problematic area of course. How do we decide when the situation calls for it? Laws that mandate adult trials or that leave discretion in the hands of the prosecutor are inherently unfair IMO. The judge is the only party in a case that is at least nominally neutral, and that is where the discretion should remain.

Needs2Know and I have met in other threads dealing with juvenile crime, and I think neither one of us is going to be convinced by the other. However, I have a couple points to make in light of this report.

Firstly, the expanded list of crimes that can bump a juvenile up into adult court is largely politically motivated and mostly a result of the failed and insipid war on drugs. I have no urge to see a kid caught with a joint thrown into the adult court system or to have a conviction record that follows him for life. To some extent, youth is the time for stupidity, rebellion, and troublemaking, and exacting a permanent price for such indiscretions is not only harsher than necessary, but ultimately counterproductive for both the individual and society. On the other hand, I also have zero compunctions about sending murderers, rapists, or those who commit any crimes with deadly intent up the river regardless of juvenile status absent compelling mitigating circumstances.

Regarding the disproportionate impact on minorities: Duh! I think we have heard enough of the statistics over the years to know that minorities are always impacted disproportionally by the criminal justice system, although there is good evidence on either side of the racial bias/poverty argument. I am not sure what is gained by essentially saying “Look! It’s the same in juvenile cases as it is everywhere else.”

The main problem I have with the arguments that blame juvenile crime on society and the parents is that it completely ignores what to do with the individual. Yes, rehabilitation is a worthwhile and ultimately cost-effective and productive goal in general. Social programs and preventive measures are good steps toward solving the general trends in juvenile crime. Better parenting would be the best step yet, although this is impossible to define, let alone mandate or police. In any case, while such steps may be desirable and effective, they do nothing to address the individual who has actually committed the crime. Given the situation where a 15 year old has blown a gang rival away, what then? Like it or not, there most certainly is a public safety argument that comes into play. “Victim of _______” arguments don’t cut the mustard after someone has decided to murder, rape, or maim another human being. Neither, IMO, does the “too young to know better” crapola that some try to hand out. Murder, death, jail, and even executions are all subjects that every normal teen understands. They are all aware of the permanence of death, society’s attitudes toward murder, and the penalties enacted on convicted murderers, and in the end it is they who pull the triggers, and their youth is not a sufficient excuse.

I agree with you 100% Ptahlis concerning violent crime. Juveniles should on occasion be sujected to the penalties of adults for no other reasons than to protect society. But these decisions should be made on a case by case basis and left up to a judge who is for the most part not driven by politics. They are also more inclined to review the child’s background and previous offenses. This way there is someone who can determine if the child is a candidate for rehabilitation or should be removed from society altogether. Problem is according to this report and in light of recent bills pending in congress juveniles are and will be increasingly bumped up into the adult system if the politicos have their way.

Something else I found interesting but not very suprising about the report…kids that can secure private counsel get a better shake in the system. Not suprising at all. What I did find very interesting were the statistics on bail amounts. It isn’t a big stretch to figure out why courts might charge whites more for bail but I wonder why they charged Hispanics youths even more? Me seeing bias everywhere I turn, figure that in jurisdictions where there is a good sized Hispanic population courts are attempting to hold them longer and make it more difficult for them to make bail. Whites on the other get gouged because historically they usually have access to more money.

I think the report pretty much speaks for itself.

Needs2know

Damn! I forgot…I’m not really suggesting that we “blame” parents…although this same bill does have something in it about parental responsibilities if I’m not mistaken. What I’m suggesting is that we have somehow in our fear of crime lost sight of just who we are dealing with here. We are not dealing with adults we are dealing with our children. Many proponents for this type of legislation live in comfort knowing that their darling little privately schooled offspring will never run up against a system that might throw them in with fully grown murderers, rapists, and thugs. And they don’t seem to care about the children of those who’s resources do not allow them protection from this new form of “juvenile justice”.

Like I said in one of my earlier posts the media and politicians are really the only ones who benefit from sensationalizing juvenile crime. Statistics have shown that it’s actually down, so why do we need additional, tougher legislation? These new laws will not keep our youth from growing up to be criminals. Just the opposite. Youths that are incarcerated with adults grow up to be repeat offenders. Kids that are exposed to decent intervention programs can go on to lead productive lives. And what’s even more scary is that from a political standpoint you have Republicans and Democrats who support these new legislations. So who will fight for our youth?

Needs2know

Well then, I am forced to retract my earlier statement. We do actually find ourselves in agreement here, at least in principle.

Ok then P what do you think a concerned citizen should do? This subject really bothers me. How can one person make a difference here when the opposition seems so strong. If you check out the ACLU site and the Human Rights Watch site both have articles about the deplorable treatment of children in this country. We are indeed the only Western nation that puts our children to death. Have you got any suggestions on how a not so politically astute person could get just a little more vocal on a subject that they feel very strongly about? Have you ever participated in something like this?

Needs2know