The juvenile courts have outlived its usefulness, and its continued existence has become a liability. The drug dealers are using children as employees because he knows that they don’t do much time. Also, there is too much violence being commited by youth that is beyond what the JV court can handle. The sentences they can provide are too light to be considered real punishment and a deterrence to crime. I say treat all juvies like adult criminals, and, if guilty, go to jail in the adult population. Yes, some may be treated like objects there, but that they should have thought of that before they committed the crime. youth should not be an excuse to rape and murder.
I say reform, not abolish.
I’m in a position where I can see the juvenile court work (high school). for the most part It works but it sure could use some reform. Abolishing it would only cause more problems.
Then we have to make a choice. People under the age of 18, 21 really, aren’t afforded full rights that any other citizen is given. Mainly because we don’t think they are mature enough to make the right decisions. Since we don’t accord them full rights how can we treat them as they are adults.
Marc
I agree. Minors and children are not allowed the following:
Freedom of Speech-Children are constantly being censured. And even if they are not, adults have the right to do.
Right to Bare Arms-Children DO NOT have the right to bare arms.
Right to Vote-Children do NOT have the right to vote
Search and Seizure-Nobody even needs probably cause to search a child’s room, backpack, locker, or other personal belongings.
And the other 23 ammendments apply in no way to minors. So how can they be tried as adults if they are not treated as adults? You want to begin trying minors as adults, you must also be prepared to give minors the right to vote, the right to bare arms, the right to privacy, etc. It’s a double standard otherwise.
“Minors who commit crimes are as good as adults.However Minors who never even get in trouble with a teacher do not deserve the same responsibility adults are entitled to.” That just sounds silly.
Either minors receive all the responsibility and all the punishment, or none of it. You can’t have it both ways
I’m sorry, but these new crimes reflect that kids want to be grown-up. Well, let’s treat them as such. I’m sorry that the death penalty couldn’t be applied to those 11-year-old kids who ambushed the people at school in Arkansas. I grew up under imaginably worse conditions than these juvenile criminals and adult criminals have, and still became a productive law-abiding adult. This is why I take this personal; it is in honor of those who survived their childhood without commiting crime.
Fine, try them as adults. But that means my friends and I should have the right to vote. When I was 11 I was getting straight A’s and watching the news every night. I guess that means I have the right to bare arms, the right to vote, and every other right that Adults are entitled but minors are not.
It doesn’t matter if children are acting like adults. They are legally children, and legally should be treated as such. You CANNOT treat them as anything other than children unless you are willing to give ALL children the right to act as adults whether they deserve it or not. As a matter of fact, you must legally abolish the whole concept of children and minors.
Let me put it another way. You cannot apply Ammendments 5,6,7 to a minor unless you are willing to apply ALL the Ammendments to a minor.
Actually the police aren’t allowed to search their backpacks without probable cause. At least if they’re not on school property.
Marc
You know- those little people who aren’t expected to know any better?
What the fuck happened to an 11 year old kid that would influence him to commit a horrible act?
That is the real crime.
Where was his father? What? In prison?
Putting children in with adult offenders would only make the violent crime problem worse. They would be forced to become more violent to survive.
It is time for Americans to realize that these simple “solutions” do not work. It may make people feel better to punish a criminal, but that does not do anything to ease the crime problem. What happens to the family of a felon? Do his sons grow up learning that crime is wrong? NO. They tend to become involved in crime as well.
If America is ready to be serious about crime, then it needs to get serious. Bitching and moaning about injustice is a natural reaction, but it does nothing to solve the problem.
quote:
Your expectation mabey. I expect MY kids to know that gunning down their playmates with an M-16 is a no-no. Remind me not to let them play with YOUR kids. :)
quote:
~~~What the fuck happened to an 11 year old kid that would influence him to commit a horrible act?
That is the real crime.
Where was his father? What? In prison?
wrong. Yes it sucks that psychopaths have bad families, yet they are psychopaths. They should not be pitied at any age, as they are destructive machines, period. Also, not all psychopaths do come from destructive homes (read Samenow, 1987). Also the recidivism rate is extremely high even for child offenders. They need to be dealt with so they are no danger to society.
quote:
~~~Putting children in with adult offenders would only make the violent crime problem worse. They would be forced to become more violent to survive.
Wrong. Prison does not cause violence. Prison is the place where violent people go. Actually the earlier age at which children start committing violent offences, the worse the prognosis.
quote:
~~~If America is ready to be serious about crime, then it needs to get serious
Agreed and we have to stop treating adolescents and children as if they have no &%$*ing clue that putting a bullet in someone's head isn't gonna kill them. Children are MUCH more rational/aware than that (read Piaget, Vigotsky, Kohlberg). When children kill (except by accident of course) they know what they are doing, and should be treated as the dangerous individuals they are. Currently there is no treatment for psychopathy at any age. Unless you come up with one, these kids should not be on the street. Innocent people WILL get hurt.
I like the thought of just killing everyone and letting God sort 'em out.
LEGALLY they aren’t supposed to know better.
By treating them as adults? I have many of the same responsiblities at home as my parents. I even had a job. Does that mean I get to vote?
Oh, that’s right. And when people come out of prison they are like delightful fairies in our lil never never land. Get a grip. People go to jail violent. They live among violence on a daily basis. They come out even more violent than when they went in. That would hold true ESPECIALLY for impressionable children.
The only people who are treating children like that are the ones who refuse to give them the responsibility of education.
Yes, but do you realize it’s legally NOT POSSIBLE TO DO THAT!!!
If you think it’s a good idea to punish children like adults, you’ve also got to reward children like adults, and completely abolish the concept of minors. That means getting rid of the all of the laws that protect minors. That would cause more problems. Do you see that?
The only way you could charge children as adults in the States is by completely ignoring the Constitution. Because of the Supreme Court, that would not last long.
i say give them adult sentences to be served in a juvenile detention center til they are 18 and can be transfered to an adult jail
Adult sentences=adult responsibility=abolishment of the concept of minors.
I appologize for my somewhat perfunctory earlier post, I was off to see a movie (Frequency…awesome movie, way better than I thought it would be) so I did not get to elaborate on our ideas.
Pepperlandgirl is putting forth the notion that in order to hold minors responsible for their actions, we must eliminate the concept of minor (and thus give them equal rights, etc.). I disagree with this concept. What we do need to do is change our conception of what minors are like. This problem must be approached from a scientific/pragmatic viewpoint, not one seeped in emotion or rationalization.
Modern conceptualizations of minors includes (oftentimes) such notions that they are 1.) born innocent 2.) passive modelers of adult behavior 3.) incapable of rational choice 4.) incapable of predicting the consequences for their behavior 5.) incapable of malicious intent 6.) have personalities which are changeable with medication/therapy. and 7.) That broken/abusive homes are the cause of child violence. Each of these assumptions are largely incorrect.
1.) People are born hedonistic, that is pleasure seeking. Infants know nothing about morality, it is something we either do or do not teach them in the first few years of life (for this I refer you to the works of Kohlberg). to end up with a psychopath all you need to do is leave them alone. Abuse sure helps but is not necessary. this is not to imply that abuse/neglect exactly CAUSE psychopathy, indeed the vast majority of those who are abused/neglected go on to develop fairly normal morality anyhoo. But they do place children at higher risk. But morality seems to develop as an interaction of the individual child’s personality and their environment. All children are violent (just look at a bunch of young children interacting and you will see them commit acts of violence few adults would dream of) but fortunately they are not strong, so little damage is done. As they get older they mature and morality develops. Some kids are just predisposed to violence however, and if combined with a bad home=psychopath.
2+3.) Children are able to make rational choices independent of their environmental modeling opportunities. Children pick and choose what they want to model. Watching the Matrix does not force a child to blow away his or her school chums, but a psychopathic child is just looking for such modeling opportunities. Again most children who are victimized do not go on to commit acts of violence.
4.) I sometimes hear such things as children are not capable of understanding death, think the other child is just gonna get up like in a cartoon, etc. This, unless the child is mentally retarded, is patently false. Children are able to understand concepts like death, as well as predict consequences of their actions from an early age (it starts at two and is solid by five…just the age when kids stop being quite so violent). For more reading on kids cognitive development and what they can/can’t understand I suggest the work of Piaget.
5.) Again, those children who do not develop normal morality are indeed inclined to malicious intent. I could regale you with the stories of children I have seen in therapy if you wish. Children are capable of a full range of human emotions, including hatred, anger, rage, etc…and often act upon these emotions.
6.) Personality seems pretty much (about 90-95%) set by about age 6 (some psychologists do disagree on this, I don’t want to give the impression of a consensus)…although it is empirically demonstrated that disordered personalities (like psychopaths) do not seem to respond to ANY kind of treatment. There is no treatment which is empirically validated WHATSOEVER for children who engage in serious acts of violence or sex assault. This means that they WILL commit these acts again as adults.
7.) I think I addressed this up above partially. We tend to feel bad for violent children as they are victimized. It is indeed sad, and their parents deserve to be punished. Unfortunately if we do not find this out however, before the child commits a violent crime, it is too late, the child him/herself is a psychopath and will go on to victimize others. Even among children who come from violent homes we can not predict which will actually become violent themselves, but once they do, we know they will continue to be violent no matter what is done. It is important to note the responsibility of the child in choosing to commit acts of violence. Although the stereotype is a child from a broken home, it must be pointed out as well that many violent children apparently come from stable loving homes (for this I refer you to Samenow, 1987 INSIDE THE CRIMINAL MIND)
At any rate my point is that if we keep poo-pooing children in the criminal justice system, we are simply giving them a chance to offend again when they are strong angry adults. I would be supportive of the notion of continuing to keep youthful offenders in separate youth facilities, transfering them at age 18 or 21. Of course youths are at higher risk of being victimized in jail, and I am sure no one would advocate that. But I can assure you, the innocent little darlings will not “learn” violence in detention/prison. They just are violent.
You may sleep soundly tonight avalongod. I have no children. I am glad that you have expectations for yours. I think that it is unlikely that they will go on a killing rampage because of this. What about kids that no one has expectations for? Where do they learn their values? On the street, I would think. A harsh school, and not 1 that discourages violence.
It is my understanding that psychopathic personalities are not caused by circumstances but by problems within their brains. It doesn’t matter what kind of upbringing that such a person has, they have a medical condition. This is why I pity them. However, most violent criminals are not psychopaths. They are people who can understand that violence is wrong, but do not. So they don’t need to be cured, they need to be taught.
I agree that child offenders tend to turn into adult offenders. I agree that the danger to society needs to be dealt with. Locking kids up is not dealing with this problem. It is pretending that it does not exist. This “solution” ignores the fact that there are plenty more children living in situations that will not teach them how to avoid violence. Should we wait until they murder and rape before we become concerned?
BTW- I am interested to see how you answer pepperlandgirl’s post. She raises a good point, and 1 that I hadn’t considered. Are you ready to give up your authority over your children?
You are not going to abolish the concept of being a minor, so relax. Minors are protected quite a bit under laws, and not all minors are ready for adult responsibilites. I know a lot of kids not ready for a credit card. (I know adults who are not ready for them, but credit isn’t a right.)
Don’t abolish JC’s. Just make it so that if kids do something like the arkansas ambush, and know that it’s wrong but don’t care, send em upstream. Reform. Besides, the adult system is burdened as is, why bog it down with kids? Prisons are not places for kids, unless there are extreme circumstances, I’d say. Prisioners would have no problems with introducing kids to the less savory aspects of prison (Rape, for one).
Somehow he sensed that I was about to reply and savaged my arguments before I could even make them! I warn everyone not to trust this snake.
Well then, assumming that your thesis is correct, then how can we morally deprive these kids of freedom without giving them a chance before age 6?
Also, I don’t think that pepper is going to be satisfied with your dismissal. The concept of minor that she is talking about is a legal concept, not a social concept.
( And I just raised a hypothetical toast to the end of simulposts a couple weeks ago. )
Abolishing the juvenile court systems would not make anything easier in the long run. I firmly believe that it is time for reform in our court systems, and not just the juvenile ones. There seems to be problems just about everywhere you turn in this country and what some people call “justice” is really injust. My thought on the matter would be that juveniles who commit more serious crimes should be put into what would be an adult version of a juvenile prison so they would be kept apart but still not be part of the adult prisons. I also like the idea of giving a juvenile an adult sentence to be carried out until the age of 18 at a juvenile detention center and then be transferred to a normal prison for the remainder of the sentence. Maybe it would serve as some form of a deterrent to keep kids from committing crimes. Just thought I would spend a little time here. Bye!