Of course. I’ve not said anything which contradicts this. But it’s not possible to insist that what creates national identity is shared values, while at the same time insisting that this very shared value is that everyone can have different values.
You can have many shared values, no shared values, or one shared value, and it’s possible that this one shared value will be “freedom of thought”. But the respect for freedom of thought is at odds with the notion that shared values is what makes a national identity.
I can’t parse this.
I disagree. Because you owe a debt of gratitude to an entity that you personally have benefited from. And you owe some respect to a system in which you expect to take your interests into account and force other people to sacrifice on your behalf.
I’ve already noted earlier that I don’t think this is about military, and if you’ll carefully read my posts you’ll note that I’ve not brought up military matters other than that disclaimer. So I don’t think this carries any weight at all.
No, it isn’t. There’s only a contradiction if you think shared means forced. It doesn’t.
You assert that shaming Kaepernick for kneeling is an expression of a nationally-shared identity. It isn’t. It’s an expression of a certain older white man ideology that is far more tribal than the broader shared values that constitute American nationalism.
I have no idea. He’s asking for arbitration, which I assume would follow the CBA rules of evidence, burden of proof, etc. I’m just pointing out arguing about his suit on its legal merits is pointless, what matters is what the CBA says.
No basis for this at all. There’s nothing about the anthem that is about “older white man” ideology. It’s something which applies to everyone in this country. I don’t think there’s anything to your assertion other than that in certain circles it’s an easy way to dismiss opposition to his protest. Call something “older white man ideology” and you’re pretty much there.
So the pampered and favored son of a wealthy father (who repeatedly abused and raped the son’s sisters) owes a debt of gratitude, and respect, to his father, since he was favored and treated well? Or a moral (and wealthy) German in the 1930s, who recognizes the terrible evil of the Nazi regime, still owes his country gratitude and respect?
That seems nuts to me. But I guess we’re at an impasse.
Okay – the same for anyone who sacrifices. I don’t see how stating one doesn’t respect the country logically must necessarily mean disrespect for those who sacrifice for that country.
I think it’s quite possible that no individual owner would have decided to sign him, and that they colluded anyway. And the subpoenas are likely to dig up a lot of dirt, even if it’s not directly relevant.
Plus, this draws more attention to his cause, which after all was the whole point to begin with.
And let me just say, I find it extremely disrespectful to this country and to its values to call peaceful protest worse than animal abuse.
The country = the people of the country. That’s all it’s about. And virtually all the people in a country sacrifice to some extent for the greater community. Anyone who pays taxes, follows laws etc.
It’s a demonstrable fact that this is primarily a concern of older white men. You can look at the demographic breakdown in the polling Or you can look at the respective demographics of the media outlets who are obsessed with it.
Of course, it is that same tribe who think all of their cultural antics represent the entire nation. But that is a delusion, not reality.
I didn’t think I could still be shocked about how divided we are as a country. But the fact that someone can honestly think that a peaceful protest against violence and discrimination is worse than torturing and killing dogs…
I get that some people value patriotic symbolism more than freedom of speech or equality under the law. (I’m not sure I understand why, but I get that it’s a thing.) But I at least thought we were all on the same page about dogs.
As a cisgendered white male, I benefit disproportionately from the institutional unfairness inherent in the current American model. I sure as hell don’t find it to be deserving of my respect, OR my gratitude. I see it as being a broken system that needs to be fixed to level the playing field.
No system is perfect. You have to look at things from a relative standpoint.
Someone who has no gratitude for a system that - even leaving aside real or supposed injustices - benefited him/her to a large extent would have no appreciation for anything anyone ever did for them. (Assuming they were consistent about this attitude and not just SJWing about a PC topic.)
Huh? How does this compute? Are you saying it’s impossible for a human to not have gratitude for system A, which benefited them in some way (due to perceived injustice), while having appreciation for friend B, who helped them in a time of need?
I specifically said “even leaving aside real or supposed injustices” and you came back with “due to perceived injustice”. How does that compute?
What I was saying is that let’s suppose this guy feels he got all sorts of benefits from being a cisgendered white male and he has no appreciation for those specific benefits because he doesn’t feel he should have gotten them. OK. But he also got other benefits. He has a police force protecting him. He has roads being built that he drives on along with assorted other infrastructure (“you didn’t build that!” :)). He has a social safety net. He has various laws that prevent other people from infringing on his rights, and so on. So the system is imperfect. But if he can’t have any appreciation for what he gets out of the system - and the sacrifices that this entails from other people - because it’s imperfect in all sorts of ways, then he can’t have any appreciation for anything anyone ever does. So a guy once did him a favor. But that same guy once got on his nerves in other ways, etc. etc.
Okay, but then why can’t Kapaernick be a guy who is just really pissed at the parts of the system that are hurting a lot of people? He may or may not appreciate the parts that work well, for him and others, but why would you condemn him so strongly (stronger than torturing animals!!!) without knowing whether he has no appreciation whatsoever for all these other things? All we know is that he’s pissed about injustice in law enforcement, and chose a controversial tactic to demonstrate his opinion. He could well have appreciation for all these other things, he just thinks it’s more important right now, and more positive for the country, to protest in the manner he chose.