Kangaroo Court?

Much has been made of the fact that the Justices on the court are all Democrats (with one “independent”). What is more cause for a concern is their attitudes and conduct.

It is apparently widely acknowledged that this is an “activist” court, which is comfortable with rewriting legislation as they see fit. This gives even more of an opportunity for prejudicial mischief. Much of the discussion seemed to center around the idea of what would be a good idea to do, rather than what the law is. Of course, no Republican will fare well under a Democrat’s idea of what is a good idea to do.

It was pointed out by one legal analyst that I heard this morning that there is a legal process for challenging the results of an election even after it is certified. Thus, he said, there is no legal reason to bar the Sec. of State from certifying the results and allowing the Gore people to challenge them later. The problem with this is political - it looks bad for the Gore people. By issuing the injunction, it would appear that the court is looking at the issue in political terms. (He said that a Bush lawyer made this point in court). The fact that they issued this injunction without having been asked to do so by the Gore people (who were in fact surprised when it happened) says even more.

Furthermore, one Justice (Pariente) made a point of asking a Bush attorney about the law in Texas that allows for manual recounts (“You work for Governor Bush”?). This does not seem to have any bearing on Florida law, and is a question more appropriate for political spheres, rather than legal.

Of course, I may be surprised. Judge Terry Lewis also seemed to indicate some discomfort with the Florida election law, before ultimately ruling that it exists after all. (Though in this case the Justices seemed to be not so much hostile to the law as indifferent to it).

To make a final point, I will say that, in general, “Democratic” judges will be more likely to be biased in political matters than Republican ones. This is because, as noted in this instance, liberal judges are more likely to be judicial activists, who in general tend to give themselves more free reign to do as they please, whereas more conservative judges are more likely to stick to the letter of the law. (This is really a matter worthy of it’s own thread, but it’s basically the point I’m making here anyway).

The Supreme Court of Florida hasn’t decided anything yet, and you’re already denouncing it?

We were fairly recently treated to a great deal of preaching from Republicans about the sanctity of “the rule of law” - was that sincere or not?

If any court does anything more strenuous than breathing, Conservatives will be unhappy with it.

Not accurate, Izzy. Where state law does not speak to an issue (in Florida, how precisely recounts should be carried out), it is common and proper to look to laws of other jurisdictions for persuasive precedent.
Further, (and I’m talking a bit loosely here - I don’t know whether a governor signing a law means, legally, that he adopts the position taken in the law), there is the principle of estoppel. Estoppel means that once you have taken a position, you are bound to that position.

  1. The most famously activist liberal Court was the Warren Court. Warren was a Republican named to the Supreme Court by the Republican Eisenhower;
  2. The next most famously activist Court was the Supreme Court during the Great Depression. They were predominately Harding/Coolidge (GOP) appointees, and there were extremely activist from the conservative side in knocking down much of the New Deal legislation. In many ways they were more activist, as the Warren Court generally dealt with interpreting laws and the Constitution in an expansive way, while the New Deal Court continuously substituted its judgment for that of the Congress and the President.
    Sua

SuaSponte,

I deliberately cited the Bush quote to show that the judge was not merely looking at other jurisdictions for a precendent, but making a point (“hey, your own guy…”).

Regarding estoppel, are you saying that the principle of estoppel means that once one has taken a position in a court (leaving aside the issue of whether signing a law fits into the category) one cannot adopt a contradictory position for one’s entire life? I don’t know much about the law, but I’d be shocked if it would carry over beyond the specific dispute at hand. Please clarify.

Concerning your second point, I should clarify that I meant liberal/conservative, and used Republican/Democratic because they loosely fit these terms. Warren was a glaring exception - a trail-blazing liberal Republican.

But in cases like this, the Democrat has the upper hand. A Democrat in the predicament of George Bush, facing a Republican-appointed court is not at as much of a disadvantage, because such a court would be less likely to overturn state election law.

“My opponent trusts the government. I trust the people.”

  • G.W. Bush, virtually every time he opened his mouth in October

Now, though, Bush trusts Florida’s Secretary of State and not its people to decide the election.

  1. “We the People” wrote the constitution.
  2. The constitution leaves it up to the legistlatures of the states to determine how to decide on electors for the President.
  3. The congress of the State of Florida, presumably representing the will of the people of Florida, vested this power in an election by the people, whose vote is to be certified by the Secretary of State one week after the election.
  4. The congress of the State of Florida, presumably representing the will of the people of Florida, directs the counties to do whatever they have to do to finish whatever counting they need to do by November 14th. It also provides for fines of $100 a day against the county commisioners if the counties are late in filing their vote tallies with the Secretary of State by November 14th. The Secretary has sole discretion on whether to accept votes after this date.

I’ll be amazed if the court can make mincemeat out of this. But all of this is in accordance with the will of the people and their elected representatives, and to say otherwise is disingenuous.

Regarding the OP:

Name a source for this assertion. Preferably a source with some expertise in determining whether a particular court tends to be ‘activist’ or not.

Offer an example, so we can see if they really do this, or if they do as a court should, that is, interpret the law as they believe the rules of constitutional and statutory interpretation should apply (keeping in mind that the very essence of conservative versus liberal governmental philosophic debate means that the two viewpoints will not agree with the approaches and actions of the other viewpoint).

Actually, supposedly ‘conservative’ justices can engage in ‘prejudicial mischief’ (presumably meaning reaching a given end pre-judged to be correct regardless of the facts or law) equally as well as ‘liberal’ justices. For examples, simply read most any opinion by Anthony Scalia, who often strains reasonable interpretation of words and ignores years of decisional law to reach his conservative conclusions.

This is common in oral arguments, because the ‘law’ is already argued quite thoroughly in the briefs, and the justices are often more interested in the effect of the positions on the real world. Remember, please, that the ‘law’ is not some black and white entity, but simply the previously expressed ideas of the legislative branch of government applied to living, dynamic individuals and their actions.

It may be the case that this is true, but it does not make the legal process occurring somehow less valid. The Secretary of State took an official action in officially rejecting the requests of the various counties to send in modified results following hand canvassing of the ballots. One could equally forcefully argue that Ms. Harris didn’t have to officially reject those requests until she certified the statewide results, presumably on Saturday following the report of the absentee ballot totals. Presumably her rejection prior to the final certification was done precisely to speed up the challenge to the decision, so that, if the result was adverse, there would still be time to resolve the issue without the risk of having federal law result in rejection of the proffered slate of electors.

By issuing an injunction, the court was precluding potentially adverse actions with significant consequences from occuring before the issue they had agreed to resolve on appeal was decided. Had Ms. Harris certified the result, then regardless of the process before the Florida Supreme Court later, absent some action by that court setting aside her certification pending appeal, the certification would still be valid unless and until it was overturned on appeal.

It has considerable bearing on the issue of Florida law, as it is being argued by the attorneys for the candidate, George W. Bush. Bush’s attorneys are arguing, inter alia (gotta toss in some Latin in any legal discussion :wink: ), that manual recounts are inherently inaccurate, prone to ‘mischief’, etc. By asking the attorney for that same candidate about the law in the state of which he is Governor, law which he signed AS Governor, the Justice is asking the attorney to establish how the concept of a manual recount can be somehow accurate enough for the State of Texas, but not accurate in the State of Florida. If the Court is to agree with Governor Bush (as opposed to agreeing with Ms. Harris, who is arguing completely different reasons for not allowing the manual canvassing to be included in the certified state total), then it has a legitimate interest in determining WHY a party before them would say that a process he himself signed into law in a sister state should be disallowed. It is not a political argument; it is an attempt to get the litigant to distinguish the current situation from one in which the litigant is involved elsewhere (estoppel is not involved; that legal concept is not even remotely applicable to this case).

We are all well aware that the point to your rant (hardly a ‘debate’) is that you don’t like the supposed ‘judicial activism’ of the Florida Supreme Court. This apparently is caused by your own prejudgement of the proper result in this case, a determination you appear to have reached in part because of things you have heard others say (nothing wrong with that, we all do it). But you don’t appear to have done any individual review to see if your conclusions are actually supported by the facts here (e.g.: evidence of how activist Florida’s Supreme Court is). Further, you have some prejudged ideas about courts populated by justices appointed by Democrats or elected to the court from the Democratic Party. Most liberals think much the same about ‘conservative’ justices, noting that they pay lip service to strict interpretation, then procede to ignore reason and legal history to reach their own pre-judged conclusions. Judicial ‘activism’ is determined NOT by whether you are liberal or conservative, but by whether or not you give deference to the role of a legislature to determine what should be done in a given situation. In the present case, judicial activism doesn’t necessarily become involved, because there appears to be statutory support for BOTH positions being taken, making this a case not of activism (as yet) but of resolving conflicting statutory mechanisms for determining the result of the Florida election.

Now, there ARE some good resons to feel LEGAL concern about the proceedings currently before the court. And it is certainly the case that all sides in the case have engaged in some legally questionable positioning. But let’s wait and read what the justices determine, as well as why they reach that determination, before we regard it as ‘activism’.

Hardly. “The will of the people” is most clearly expressed by their own votes, wouldn’t you say?

Yeah… but the people also have expressed through the law that they wanted all the vote counting done a week after the election.

ONE of the conflicting laws says that - the one that’s convenient for reaching the conclusion you want to reach.

Don’t you see any irony in your assertion that the government reflects the will of the people, while your man Bush so strongly drew a distinction in his most-recent campaigning?

If you’ll admit “My opponent trusts government. I trust the people” was campaign hogwash, I’ll be happy to agree.

Are you trying to say G. W. Bush ran as an anarchist??

I think W. does support government doing things like passing laws (to determine how elections are to be conducted, for example). I don’t think he trusts government to do things like run the medical industry or to be responsible enough to save money entrusted to it under the Social Security plan.

No, I think he ran as an BS’er with no higher principle other than saying whatever he thought would help get him elected. His actions and statements since the election seem to me to have proven that.

If you think he truly shares your conservative beliefs, and will truly act on his stated principles and his intent to be “a uniter, not a divider, who will end the partisan bickering etc.”, then good luck to you, and good luck to us all if he pulls this off.

:confused: Don’t look at me – I voted for Nader. Gore seems to be the one trying to pull something off though. The law is the law. I doubt the Florida congress passed two conflicting laws at the exact same time and think it is a stretch to say allowing hand counts somehow contradicts counting ballots in a timely manner.

But, the court will decide.

I am repeating what I’ve read and heard from legal analysts during the course of this election. Now that you are challenging it, I did a cursory search through the media outlets that I usually frequent, but did not find it. If it subsequently turns up, I will post a link.

Not sure what you mean. It seems self evident that someone who is apt to impose his own vision of what is right will impose more of his prejudice on his rulings. By comparison, someone who is committed to what the law says will find himself concurring with many laws that he finds distasteful because of this principle. I can’t quibble with you about specific examples, and there are ecxeptions to every rule, but if you find something wrong with my reasoning don’t hesitate to point it out. As you say, rhetoric is not debate.

Are you saying that a Florida state court would be justified in ruling differently in this exact case were John McCain running, based on the fact that Bush had signed such a law in his home state, while McCain had not? I find this incredible. Please clarify if this is indeed your position.

I think the assumptions that I made are common, and are reflected in judicial handicapping of judicial results. The following quote from the NY Times suggests that this is at least, a common assumption

There are lots of kinds of estoppel. I’ll clarify one kind, which I think fits most closely with what you are asking about.
The principle of judicial estoppel bars a party to a lawsuit from taking a position that contradicts an earlier taken position. It may apply within one lawsuit, or may apply to subsequent lawsuits. Many jurisdictions caveats that judicial estoppel applies only (i) if you change your position in order to advance your cause or (ii) if you were successful in advancing/proving your position in the earlier argument/lawsuit. You are generally allowed to say “I made an error earlier, and I’m fixing it now”.
Once example of the application of estoppel is if you sue your employer for, say, workmen’s comp. and win as an employee, you cannot claim in a later lawsuit (ever) that you were an independent contractor instead of an employee.

I do not think that your clarification has any effect on my example of the New Deal court. They were by any definition conservative, and they were very activist in trying to shut down the New Deal.

Looking at this from a legal point of view, no one before the Fla. Sup. Court is seeking to overturn Florida’s state election law. To my knowledge, no one is arguing that the election law is unconstitutional, which is the only means of overturning a law. The arguments on both sides concern interpretation.

Sua

Even taking this out of a discussion of estoppel, this is not an inappropriate question for a judge. For example, a slumlord who refuses to repair his tenant’s apartments is going to face a lot of trouble in front of a judge if he sues his landlord for failure to repair his apartment. In America, the courts of law and equity have been combined, and equity is about what’s fair. Even if the law is on your side, courts are very unlikely to rule in your favor if you are asking to be treated differently than you treat others. BTW, this is in no way intended to compare Bush to a slumlord.

I answered this in my last post, but something disturbed me. Are you accusing the Fla. Sup. Ct. of bias? Please clarify or give examples.

Sua

I can’t see how estoppel would apply to what Bush did acting a governor. In that role his is supposed to do the will of those he was elected to serve. That may be contrary to his own ideas. But maybe you are right.

I was only using estoppel as an example - I don’t think it strictly applies here. My whole point is that judges love to point out inconsistencies in a party’s position, and this one was that Bush’s lawyers were arguing that machine counts are to be trusted over hand counts even though their client had signed into law a preference of hand counts over machine counts.
As for the second part of your post, I don’t quite agree. Governors have the power to veto things contrary to their own ideas.
Sua

I finally found a good distillation of the dispute before the Florida S. Court: Florida election law explicitly allows hand recounts, but also explicitly sets a deadline for certification that, with Florida’s large population, prohibits hand recounts from being completed before the results are due. What do you do, hotshot? What do you do?

Now, that’s a real good law school exam question :smiley:
Sua