Someone we loved and admired for uncounted reasons is dead.
Right now, I don’t care how.
I don’t care why.
Right now, the only thing I want to think of is the great things he did, not the “bad”.
Right now, I don’t care what anyone’s opinion of him was if they don’t like him or care for his work.
Right now, the only thing I can think of is “My God, he is dead.”
Death is final, death is forever - at least as damn far as we know and I have no reason to believe otherwise. HST is dead. He was a human being who I admired, who only a short while ago was alive and now he’s dead and fuck anyone, fuck fuck fuck anyone sideways with a rusty pole who looks down upon those of us who grieve. Mind your own fucking business.
Honestly, to the ones who must point it out - what’s the point of mocking us right now? Who are you trying to save? Are you just trying to prove how “superior” to the rest of us you are for not caring? Are you trying to convince us, or yourself? Because quite frankly, we’re too busy grieving to admire your cock walk.
Little bit too late for treatment once they off themselves.
I haven’t suggested that depression and/or mental illness are things to be ashamed of, nor that they are easy to treat, nor that they are easy to overcome.
Well that depends on the individual case, no? If the person suffers from clinical depression then you are correct. What if, on the other hand, we were discussing those people who killed themselves after the 1929 stock market crash? I would feel sympathy for the individuals concerned, but would contend that they took the coward’s route out.
I’m sorry, cricetus, but getting help, getting treatment, facing your demons, just trying–Those are all “snapping out of it.” They’re necessary, and people who don’t take those steps are indeed wallowing in their self-piting martyrdom and justifying bad behavior and don’t deserve my sympathy.
And yet, if someone dies of depression, you own it not to the disease, but to a character flaw of the diseased. You can’t argue from the point of rationality of what depressed people “should” do, since the disease impairs rationality.
Calling people “fucking cowards” (your words, post #37) for committing suicide sounds like “things to be ashamed of.” You really need to learn more about the subject because you do not know what you are talking about (I’m talking clinical knowledge, not personal experience). Suicidal urges come from brain-based illness, psychological stress, societal isolation, and lack of coping mechanisms, and are not a signal of moral failure. There’s still a lot that is unknown about the etiology of suicide, but one factor that seems to be prevalent is a subjective sense of futility and helplessness in the face of overwhelming personal circumstances. That’s why suicide makes no sense to outside observers, the victim’s family members and friends. “He had so much going for him” is meaningless if the suicidal person cannot see that from his perspective.
And in some circumstances suicide is even a useful solution. I know that if I were diagnosed with a terminal illness that would cause irremediable suffering, like Alzheimer’s or cancer, I’d definitely take my own life while it was within my ability to do so.
As I just said, you can’t attribute effects of the illness to poor character. The resentment of depressed people evident in your last sentence is not rare, but it is baffling.
I’d feel the same way if someone I loved had cancer and, rather than getting a cure, left it up to God, or just pretended they were perfectly fine. Or if they were an alcoholic (also a disease) who continued to drink. Resentment. Why should people suffering from depression get a free pass? There’s a difference in character between someone who lives with a disease and tries to overcome it, and someone who succumbs. Think of all the people on this board who suffer from mental or physical ailments and only mention it in pit threads where they’re condemning someone who uses that ailment as an excuse for preferrential treatment, or to commit bad acts.
Yes, people have personal choices, and I support people’s right to suicide and refusal of medical treatment, but I have my personal preferences about who I’d want to spend time with and love, and who I wouldn’t. If you think clinical depression excuses someone committing suicide, not living a full, honest life, or not being happy, you’re doing more harm than I, who is hoping for them to get cured of their medical affliction.
And no, I never said it was as easy as popping a pill. But I believe effort speaks of character.
A free pass for what? From who? Your question implies that they need some sort of permission as to how they choose to end their own lives.
“Character” has nothing to do with it. People with suicidal depression have severely distorted perceptions of reality. They are, quite literally, not in their right minds and their decisions are not made with rational clarity.
I also just don’t see what character has to do with eve if the person is not depressed. Why does any person have a moral obligation to stay alive who doesn’t want to?
Therapy and meds are no magic bullet. For some, they are useless. Our understanding of depression is shallow, at best. Treatment often consists of randomly throwing one pill after another at a person and hoping one will stick. I’ve been at least 15 (I lost count) different medications, and none help.
Then there is the often overpowering feeling of “nothing could ever make me better.” If the first few medicines don’t take, that feeling is heavily reinforced.
Have you ever considered that perhaps some people have more severe depression than others, and that the differences in severity can be so extreme as to make your conclusion seem laughably ignorant?
Depression does not excuse someone from being unhappy? WTF?
Dio, neutron star and gobear have nailed it. Speaking as one who has suffered through depression deep enough to have me contemplating throwing myself under a speeding bus, I can tell you that rational assessment of one’s circumstances is beyond one’s reach at such times.
I’m one of the fortunate ones whose depression did respond to medication, in fact to the first one I went on. The difference in perception, in capability of rational thinking, was profound. I can look back now and understand clearly how distorted my thinking was then. But when I was shrouded in that suffocating darkness, I could see no way out, and only a few tenuous lifelines to reality kept me alive.
I would never pass judgment on another person’s suicide.