Kel Varnsen - Latex Division - Fuck You

You seem to assume that the only reason for my lack of understanding about other people’s grief is some sort of ignorance about who Thompson was, or what his contribution to our culture was. You are completely mistaken. I made very clear in my last post that i’m well aware of Thompson’s life and work; in fact, as a PhD candidate in 20th-century United States history, i would be rather remiss if i didn’t know something about him. I also made a point of saying that “i can appreciate his contributions, and i think the world is, in a small way, a lesser place for his departure.” And to this extent, yes, i feel the loss of his departure. But this, for me at least, is very much different from grieving.

Complete non-sequitur. Another person who assumes that my position arises from a simple lack of appreciation of the individual, Hunter S. Thompson. Another person who is incorrect.

I’m not questioning Thompson’s popularity, or, indeed, the popularity of any particular individual. I completely understand that people become popular for a variety of reasons, and that i’m not always going to agree with other people about the relative value of one popular person over another. And, in fact, i do understand Thompson’s popularity, because i happen also to be someone who appreciates his work—just in case you missed it again. And sure, the world is always a little bit poorer for the loss of him of of any writer. It’s a little bit poorer for the loss of a great many individuals. I just can’t bring myself to grieve about it.

And for anyone else who wants to chime in to educate me about brilliance of HST, you can save your energy. I’m well aware of who he was and what he did, and it has virtually no bearing on my position. In fact, i just did a little thought experiment with myself. I chose the five public figures whom i most admire. Like Thompson, these are, in Case Sensitive’s formulation, not just “celebrities,” but people who i believe make a real contribution to this world. And i believe the world will be a lesser place when they die. But i really, truly know that i won’t actually grieve when that happens. Think of me as ignorant about the causes of popularity, if you like, but you’ll be wrong. Think of me as heartless or uncaring, if that makes you feel better, but it’s not something i can change just by willing it.

Also, to those who take umbrage at my position, you’ll notice that i didn’t come stampeding into the grieving thread to give it to you. I’ve already said that Kel’s comments were stupid and unnecessary. I usually don’t enter threads on celebrity deaths precisely because (a) i don’t generally have anything to add, and (b) i realize that some people feel differently than i do, and those threads are not the place to point out our differences. But this is not the grieving thread, so if you don’t want to hear my opinion, and you feel i should “save the bandwidth,” then fuck off back to the other thread where you can grieve to your heart’s content.

One of the interesting things about the 'Dope is how now and again you run across people who fit the description “smart, but not wise.” Because there are a fair number of literate, interesting, sometimes even intriguing posters who know quite a few things but whose knowledge has been cast on shallow soil. One hopes that all they need is some time to gather real life experiences that will add depth and nuance to their informed opinions, making them wise rather than merely smart.

Karl aspires to be one of the knowledgable. He thinks that being mouthy and cynical makes him smart. He thinks that facts will redeem him.

Karl is a fool of the greatest magnitude, and an ass to boot.

Pissing in a grief thread is about as low as one can get.

No one said it was a moral issue. I’ve had two good friends commit suicide and both had pretty compelling reasons. I’m only aggrivated by those people calling suicide a heroic act just to get back at Kel. I think it’s insincere. No one needs my permission to kill themselves, and I’m sorry if I gave that impression.

neutron star:

How do you read that as a condemnation of your condition? You sought treatment, apparently quite aggressively. It’s tragic that medical science (such as it is) has failed you, but I have not blamed you, explicitly or implicitly, for anything.

My point was simply that when passing judgement on suicide (especially that of public figures), you often do not know how aggressively they sought treatment.

Even if you knew they didn’t seek treatment, I hardly see how it’s the same as someone not seeking treatment for cancer. In the case of depression, the lack of motivation and hope is a product of the illness. Not so with cancer. I don’t see how you can bemoan someone for lack of effort in the face of illness when the illness itself is what made the effort go away.

Also, I don’t see anyone in this thread who came even close to calling suicide heroic. I’m not sure where you got that from.

In general I agree with you. I was one of those people that never gave a damn about Princess Diana dying and couldn’t tell you anything about her husband either. My usual reaction to a celebrity dying is “And? So what?”

OTOH, HST was different. For starters, his books were hilarious. Samual Clemens is the only other author that can give me a belly-laugh like HST.
The other thing about HST was the way he talked about almost every politician he met. No compromises at all. I truly admired his way of digging through the layers of obfuscation and evasive bullshit to get to the meat of an answer; and if it turned out there was no meat, pointing that out as well. HST said the things that many journalists would like to say but lack the balls. The world might even be a better place if HST got rolling on some present-day politicians like he did Nixon. Mockery is tough on those guys.
I felt like I knew the man, he did all the things I’d like to if I was willing to pay the price.
I don’t really consider HST a celebrity. I guess he was well known in some circles but he wasn’t really famous in the sense that some TV or movie personalities are. I like to think HST is in a class of his own, someone that made a difference in many people’s opinions.
If you don’t really connect to HST well, that’s a shame and I think you’re missing out but be assured that I’m about the last guy on earth that could be accused of one-upmanship in grieving for deceased celebraties.

And lastly, my apologies for the lengthy post.

Best regards

Testy

Kel’s said some dumb things in his time, but I’m going to defend him on this one.

Why was what he said so terrible? There are a lot of people who think suicide is a cowardly act; even if you disagree, why should Kel be criticized for saying it? What did he do to deserve a warning from a mod?

As for the idea that Kel was disrespectful; even if this were true, how many times have dead celebrities been disrespected on this board? Most “so and so is dead” threads start out with a joke title. And plenty of them have mocked the subject a lot worse than anything Kel said. And Hunter Thompson, himself, based his entire life on disrespect.

There were no special circumstances about Hunter Thompson’s death. He wasn’t a member of this board or a relative of anyone here. He didn’t die in some particularly tragic fashion. He was 67 years old and decided it was time to die.

I made no connection between HST’s suicide and depression. I have no idea why he killed himself.

That thread is kind of like a wake, only on a message board. Regardless of how you feel about the decedent or how his life ended, it’s in poor taste to walk into a wake and talk shit about the guy in the casket.

Kel’s a fucking douchebag, and I’ve thought so since his first threads. The drive-by that earned him this pitting just confirmed it.

I don’t know if it deserves its own pitting, but it seems that memorial threads attract assholes.

From the memorial thread in MPSIMS

ralph124c feels someone needs to be an asshole, or it’s just not complete.

I mean… he’s totally ignorant about Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, doesn’t even know it’s a fictional narrative, but feels the need to trash the memory of Hunter? A big fuck you to him to.

I agree with that - I wouldn’t even post a “HURRAY” if someone started a similar thread about GWB. I may start my own thread saying that, but I wouldn’t go stepping on someone else’s grief.

That said, I also think suicide is the one of the most selfish and cowardly things a person can do.

Okay, hoping not to get hopelessly off topic.

  1. H.S.T. was a big man. He lived fearlessly, and likely died the same way.

  2. People commit suicide for probably two different reasons.

    a) They are terminally ill and want to go out while they’re healthy. My opinion is that that’s their choice and a perfectly brave and reasonable choice. I don’t want to die in a diaper, in pain, unable to care for myself either. Judge not, there but for the grace of god, and all those clichés.

    b) They are mentally ill. They don’t have the rationality left to make a rational decision. They’re in so much pain that even THIS extreme seems “logical.” They’re no longer responsible for their own actions in the same way ANYONE who is THIS ill can no longer make decisions for themselves. They aren’t capable of considering treatment as an option. Or anything else for that matter.

One thing I figured out after the suicide of a man I was dating is that his death is HIS tragedy. Not everything is about YOU (in this case, “you” is the literate public, I suppose). He’s the one who lost his life, he’s the one who’s no longer here to enjoy what’s left…you’re not a “victim” of suicide, the dead man is.

People who go on and on about how suicide is cowardly and selfish are just turning themselves into victims of someone else’s tragedy. You’re not the person we should feel bad for in this case…

L

Exactly!
It was his life, and I’m sure our feelings didn’t enter into his decision making process at all. How selfish can you get, angry at a man for dying the way he chose because you can’t read his stuff anymore?

Don’t get me wrong, I’m pissed off at him too, angry that he chose to die. But it’s only my selfishness, and I don’t claim any objective justification.

Hehe, is that a Freudian slip about Hunter’s desitination? :slight_smile:

Why yes, I did see Constantine

Heh heh. I didn’t notice I’d done that. If he is in Hell, he’s probably getting the devil drunk right now and teaching him how to fire a grenade launcher.

Who are you really mad at me or the coward you thought you knew through his writing?

It is also great to see people get so upset about a post showing a lack of respect to someone. See any thread on our current President. Or the “tell me what a bastard Johnny Carson was” thread (which was started right after he died.

Kel, the point was not that you think Thompson is a coward. It was that you felt the need to piss all over a thread that was started as a “rest in peace” thread.

Don’t like HST? Think he’s a coward? Think anyone who commits suicide is a coward? Fine. But your contribution to the other thread was gratuitous and silly.

As should be obvious from this thread, i think grieving over people you’ve never even met is kinda lame, but i don’t march into the grieving threads to proclaim my opinion and piss people off.

You shit in a thread which was devoted to honoring the man’s memory.

You also have zero right to make any judgement calls on how he chose to live, or end, his life. You have no idea what was going through his head, and you’re acting like an asshole.

Even after reading all the posts in this thread, you still don’t get it? It’s not your criticism of HST that sets people off, it’s your decision to boorishly do it in a thread devoted to honoring him. You want to pit him, his memory, or his fans, start your own damned thread. Don’t go crashing parties to which you’re not invited.

Really, I don’t you making these judgments about what people can say about someone when a thread is started about a child murder. Suicide is wrong and cowardly. When someone is wrong we should say it is wrong.

Also, I didn’t start the comments about how he lived his life. Why aren’t you pissed at the person who said he was brave. Is it only OK to make judgments about people if they are “positive” judgments?

The thread was about more than just grieving HST life. People were making judgments about him. Why I am not free to post my judgment about HST? Can you only post a judgment about him if it is positive?

It is only relevant in a tangential way, but Ralph Steadman was interviewed on TV earlier with respect to HST’s death. He said his first thought on being woken up at 3am to hear the news was “you bastard”. He went on to say that he felt that the suicide was driven by HST’s mobility problems. Specifically that he had two hip/knee? replacement operations, and the recent breaking of his ankle.