Kent State shootings- Who was wrong?

100 guardsmen trying to control a campus with 1000 protesters. They put on gas mask and launch tear gas. Its hot and they have loaded rifles. And they are being pelted by rocks. One of them panics and shoots. and others start shooting. 4 students are killed (the closest at 125 yards - which is quite a shot if you are shooting with a gas mask on).
If I am in that situation as a protester, I stop protesting and darn sure stop harassing an armed squad of 21 year old guardsmen.

What am I missing? It seems that history tells us that 4 innocents were shot down by the guard. Is that the end of the story? On a later movie about it they made the protestors seem angry and threatening and couldn’t understand why they were shot at.

Thoughts?

Those damn pesky students.

So tell me, what are your thoughts on Tiananmen Square?

Did those pesky students attack the soldiers in any way? I don’t know. DId the army panic ? Did the students give them any reason to panic?

I do know that the movie I saw seemed to present the student’s side while showing them trying to piss off the guards. It was like they were up against an army or a tank and not a bunch of overmatched frightened 21year olds with loaded weapons. I am always amazed at the coolness displayed by the riot police when you see the protestors throwing rocks, bottles, etc from behind every building or car. I don’t think I could just stand there. And in the riots I have seen the police were always there in force so they didnt appear to be intimindated. That doesn’t seem to be the case in OHIO in 1970.

There’s an awful lot of information maintained on the Kent State University website.

I found this particular piece interesting because it attempts to address the issue from both sides and to dispel some long-held myths as well as put the event to into an historical context.

FWIW, I believe any democratic government is skating on thin ice when it uses its military against its own citizens to suppress protests about government actions. Using the military to suppress protests about the government’s military actions (remember, these protests were initially in response to the US invading Cambodia) was - at best - a monumental error of judgement and almost guaranteed to escalate the situation.

Well, reprise, then I guess we’ll just have to chuck out the entire parliamentary monarchy in the United Kingdom. Last I heard, right around 1776 or thereabouts, there was a bit of protest against that government’s actions and the response was military.

And let’s not candycoat Cambodia’s involvement in the Vietnam war. The Ho Chi Minh Trail wasn’t all in Vietnam. Sihanouk wasn’t all that effective as leader of his nation, after all.

Credit where credit is due … 125 yards is a long way to chuck a rock.

Edlyn and I visited Kent State during our honeymoon as they were hosting the 30th anniversay of the massacre. It was sobering to stand on Blanket Hill from where the guardsmen fired, and look out over the parking lot and field, surrounded on all sides by dormitories, a gymnasium, and a fence. They truly were shooting fish in a barrel.

In my mind, I tried to imagine hearing 67 high-powered rifle shots in 13 seconds along with shrieks, screams, and stampeding shoes scraping across the pavement. Afterward, I tried to imagine a prolonged and eerie silence, followed by wailing, crying, and gurgling from the blood-filled lungs of dying students. I could see the four spots where they fell, marked by lighted pilasters and bronze plaques, and tried to imagine the faces of the four.

Two-hundred and seventy-five feet away from me, Jeffrey Miller was shot in the head. He had transferred to Kent State four months earlier. The morning of May 4, he had called his mother, Elaine Miller, and asked her if he could attend a rally scheduled for noon. She heard the news of the shooting on the radio in her car that afternoon, and called Jeff as soon as she got home. Her call was answered by a young man named Bruce. “Let me speak to Jeff,” she said. He asked who she was. “His mother,” she answered. He paused for what seemed like an eternity to her, and said simply, “He’s dead”.

My eyes wandered to the space three hundred feet away from me where nineteen-year-old honor student Allison Krause was shot through the arm and chest. I thought about her boyfriend, Barry Levine, holding her and gazing with disbelief into her beautiful face as she lay in a pool of blood, trying to speak, murmering that she’d been hit. The prior night, she had pounded hysterically on the door of the Tri-Towers dormitory as guardsmen closed in on her with bayonettes. A stranger had let her in just in time.

I could see a glint of sunlight from the bronze plaque that marked where William Schroeder fell when he was shot in the back at a distance of nearly four-hundred feet. The night before, the strikingly handsome young ROTC student had called his parents to tell them that he was okay, and that he was upset about the burning of the building where he had excelled as an officer candidate, advised by his mentor, Vietnam War veteren Don Peters. Bill died from hemorrhaging in his left lung five minutes after arriving at Robinson Memorial Hospital.

I saw someone placing a yellow rose at the site, roughly four-hundred feet from where I stood, where Sandra Scheuer, who had been studying speech therapy, was shot in the throat. Her mother, Sarah, had been painting outdoors that afternoon when she heard the faint sound of a phone ringing from inside. Her husband, Martin, said that there had been some trouble at the campus. After frantically phoning Sandy’s apartment, the university, and finally the hospital in Ravenna, Sarah’s call was given over to the hospital’s director. He told her that she’d better come on over.

Before leaving for Monticello, Edlyn and I walked all around the campus, visiting the memorials and listening to the stories of people who had been there. I don’t know whether it was my own mood that I projected, but it all seemed so surreal. We watched young students lay flowers at plaques and markers that they walked by every day, but today paused to read and remember as they thought of their fallen predecessors.

One young woman, clutching her books as she knelt at a beautiful memorial of polished granite, looked up at me as I stood with my new bride. She seemed to read my face as she lay down her red rose.

“Were you here?” she asked.

“I guess in spirit I was,” I replied.

She stood and pressed her hand against my arm. “Don’t worry,” she said quietly, “we won’t forget.” I choked back tears as I watched her walk away to her class. I winced as I heard in my mind the rifles firing again.

Who was wrong? I don’t know, but it wasn’t those four.

Libertarian, I have never heard that number (67 rounds fired) before, even at this late date I am stunned. 67! They were armed with Garand rifles, yes? Five shot clips. 13 full clips of ammo were fired?

Who the hell issued these drooling morons live ammo!

Jesus wept.

Very good.

Elucidator: Maybe of the 100 guys 67 fired.

But indeed, live ammo to shoot at children?

Elucidator

In testimony at the civil trial, Scott Robinson of Bolt, Berenek & Newman (the same firm that analyzed the Nixon tape erasures) gave these findings (among others) based on analysis of tapes, video-tapes, and film from the massacre:

[ul]
[li]The first 3 shots came from M-1 rifles[/li][li]Shots 1 and 3 came from midway between the Pagoda (at the top of the hill) and the corner of Taylor Hall[/li][li]Shot 2 came from within 10 feet of the Pagoda[/li][li]The first three shots happened within 3/4 second[/li][li]The rifle that fired the first shot fired five times[/li][li]The 2nd and 3rd rifles fired 3 rounds each[/li][li]One M-1 fired a full clip (8 rounds)[/li][li]The final shot fired was the last shot from that rifle[/li][li]67 shots were fired in total[/li][li]32 shots came from M-1s[/li][li]At least 3 shots came from a .45 automatic[/li][li]At least 2 shots came from a 12-gauge shotgun[/li][li]The rest were from indeterminate sources[/li][/ul]

According to Robinson, the very first shot fired was from a point midway between the Pagoda and the south corner of Taylor Hall.

Children? The shootings were an atrocity, this is true, but let’s not start equating College-aged war protesters with “children” to try and garner more sympathy here.

Only one of the murdered students, Jeffrey Miller, was a “war protester”. All the victims were minors under 1970 Ohio law.

Nine students, besides the four who died, were injured. One of them was Donald Scott MacKenzie. His second class of the day had been cancelled due to a bomb scare. He was was shot in the neck, an inch-and-a-half from his spine. The bullet exited through his cheek, and pulverized a portion of his jaw. He was sitting quietly on the grass near the tennis courts, north of the Commons, 750 feet away from Blanket Hill.

Lest I seem insensitive or assholic - what I was saying is it’s a tragedy that is bad enough and horrible enough as it stands, without the need for any other qualifiers. It makes me very sad to read the memorials.

I knew the National Guardsmen were being stoned, but I didn’t know that protesters had burned down the ROTC building or attempted to prevent firemen from putting out the fire.

And am I the only one to find the following somewhat jarring -

Regards,
Shodan

Wasn’t one guy paralyzed for life?

I still get chills when I listen to the Neil Young song, “Ohio”

Tin soldiers and Nixon’s bombin’
We’re finally on our own
This summer I hear the drummin’
Four dead in Ohio

There’s something terribly wrong when people are killed walking to fucking CLASS.

Children or no, if they were college aged, chucking rocks and burning down buildings, they were creating a situation where people could easily get hurt or killed.

It is not a defense of the Ohio Guard to note that they wouldn’t have been there in the first place if the protests hadn’t gotten way out of control.

Have any of the protest leaders of the period apologized for their role in this? The State of Ohio has.

A, Burning the ROTC building was a crime. Generally, the proper response to a crime that happened sometime before someplace other, isn’t to open fire on people who may include some of those responsible for said crime, but most assuradly also include many who were not.

B. Chucking rocks 125 feet uphill also can be considered a crime. However, once again, generally ‘attempted assault’ is not a capital offense.

C. In addition to those people who were doing A & B, there most assuradly were quite a significant number of people who were innocently walking from point a to point b, sitting beneath a tree and reading etc. all, completely lawful activities.

Shodan

According to trial testimony, students threw rocks when the 116 guardsmen pushed them against the fence before retreating back up the hill. There was nowhere for the students to go, other than into the butts of rifles and the points of bayonets, so they split out on the two sides. When the Guard realized that it had effectively forced the students to surround them, it began a bizarre retreat toward the hill right through the crowd.

Prior to that, according to Major John Whiton Simons, chaplain of the 107th Armored Cavalry and present when the order to disperse was given by the Guard described the students actions as “milling around… a kind of picnic, festive atmosphere.” Although there had been rioting on prior days, there was no riot on campus that May 4.

James Ahern, a Scranton Commission expert on riot control, commenting on the guard’s push to the fence said, “One never takes men into a situation where you can’t get out. The whole idea of moving against a crowd is to disperse it as quickly as possible, is to leave avenues of escape, and really the basic question in that kind of a situation is where did they hope to drive that crowd? The only other place … they are already on campus … perhaps into the buildings. If it were into the buildings, then going down where that fence was on the practice field would just serve no purpose at all… They actually split the crowd, without diverting it, and put themselves in an embarrassing position of having to come through without having accomplished the mission, subjecting themselves to more verbal abuse.”

Once the guard was finally back where it had begun, marching up Blanket Hill, practically all the student rock throwing had stopped. They had to stop. They couldn’t reach the guard from where they were. When James Michener was researching his book, Kent State, What Happened and Why, he came upon the Knowles photographs that had been excluded from the jurors’ sight. He wrote:


Guin

Yes, Dean Kahler is paralyzed and wheelchair bound for life. Also injured was Joseph Lewis, who has one numb leg and is missing several feet of intestine. Tom Grace is missing part of his left foot. John Clearly lost three ribs and part of a lung. Alan Canfora was shot in the wrist. Jim Russell was shot in the thigh and forehead (he took two bullets). Robbie stamps was shot in the back. And Doug Wrentmore was shot just below the knee.


Mr. Moto

The apology (which never used the word “apology”) was issued in a statement required by the trial’s settlement. It wasn’t from the State of Ohio. It was from the defendants in the trial: Governor Rhodes, former adjutant general Del Corso, and 26 other national guardsmen. The students who were murdered that day were not the people who burned down the ROTC building. In fact, one of the victims was himself a stellar ROTC student.

justinh said:

I think you’ve answered your own question. Although the protesting turned ugly and the protesters actions were indefensible, “panicking” is not a legitimate reason for opening fire.

I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear. I’m not blaming the victims. I’m merely saying that the leaders of the protest are culpable to a degree.

The Guard acted stupidly. I took no pains to defend them in my post. This does not change the fact that they were on campus in response to a protest that was violent and out of control.

There is no right to riot in the Constitution. Anyone inciting this riot has blood on their hands.

I was not aware that the statement was from the named defendants rather than the state. I would still like to see any regrets issued by any protest leaders.