Kerry Shooting Himself in the Foot Already.

None?

And there’s Bush leaning on Clarke on 9/12/01 to come up with a connection between Iraq and the events of the previous day (Iraq? why Iraq at all, then?), there’s the creation of alternative shops (such as the Office of Special Plans) to massage the intel differently from the CIA, there’s the Administration insistence that the sources provided by Chalabi were good, when the CIA was dubious.

No pressure. None.

Was Woodward an eyewitness to this encounter? If not, who were his sources? Woodward’s become a bit of a shill in recent years, and while I’m sure he retains his two-source rule, this sort of statement is so contrary to everything we know of what Bush might say - the same Bush who, for instance, goes on and on to the American people about Saddam being a madman, without any supporting evidence whatsoever - that I’ve got to wonder who Bob’s sources were, and what their agenda was.

And even if it happened as stated, Bush was certainly easily satisfied: “I need more evidence.” “Sir, it’s a slam-dunk, I tell ya!” “OK, good enough for me. Evidence, schmevidence.”

True - but more honest Presidents state the counterarguments and rebut them, rather than fail to acknowledge their existence. That’s still salesmanship, but it’s honest salesmanship.

Maybe it might have been reasonable, if they’d had a genuine plan for what happened after Saddam’s statue got toppled - one that dealt with risk. Like: what are the risks? What are the likelihoods and potential impacts of the risk events? And what our our contingency plans to reduce the likelihood and impact of the risk events?

GWB says he’s the CEO President. This is standard risk-management stuff that you’d learn in a one-day seminar, without having to get an MBA - which GWB has, not that he’s showing much sign of having learned any lessons from it.

Without such a plan, there’s no viable debate. The invasion was a knuckleheaded, disastrous (for both Iraq and the US) mistake, period. And hope is not a plan.

With such a plan, there’s a debate, but not much of one. There were all sorts of disagreements about whether the intel was any good - on each and every point of the intel, it seems: on Saddam’s nuclear program (was there much of one? What about the yellowcake from Africa? How about the aluminum tubes?), Saddam’s biological weapons, the al-Qaeda connection, even the humanitarian stuff. Even looking at Iraq in isolation, as if it were the only threat in the world, the case is shot through with holes. And especially after we told the inspectors where to look for WMDs, and they came up empty, you’d think we’d have realized: there’s nothing there. (And maybe we did. My personal belief, my WAG, is that the Bushies went to war when they did because if they didn’t, it would soon become apparent that the threat didn’t exist.)

But when you look at Iraq side by side with other world threats, what do you see? Nuclear weapons? Sure - in Pakistan, probably in NK, and soon in Iran. But not anytime soon in Iraq, much as Saddam would like them. Al-Qaeda connections? Sure - in Pakistan and Iran, but not in Iraq. Humanitarian abuses? Sure, in North Korea, Zimbabwe, Burma, but to a much lesser extent in places like Iran and Iraq. Hostile towards us? Iran, Iraq, North Korea. Recently attacked us, or actively trying to have the means to do so? Iran, North Korea. Might nuke somebody if we attacked them? (IOW, we’d better not!) NK, Pakistan. Someone we can hand power over to, for an easy out when we’re done? Sure, in Iran and Burma. But not in Iraq or NK.

Once you start doing that sort of comparison, who do you invade first, if invade you must? Iran, hands down. Maybe the Bushies just made a typo and never fixed it.

Oh my, but that’s rich, given that in the post I was replying to, you spit out the little gem about how Democrats don’t seem to be guided by moral convictions. And you think you should have any credibility after that? HAH!

Are you insane? Seriously. What kind of idiot thinks one could only discern a lie if one were a mind reader?

I’m afraid it’s you who’s “going to have to limit your claims to what I actually said,” asshole. Or is reading for comprehension not your strong suit? Try reading my post again and see if you can find where I said one word about Bush lying about WMD or Iraq or anything at all specifically related to the war. In fact, the only examples I specifically quoted were lies he told before he was even elected.

He claimed, in the 2000 debates, that he had supported a Patient’s Bill of Rights as Governor of Texas. He claimed that as president, he would do the same. (All bolding mine)

He did nothing of the sort in Texas and he did nothing of the sort once in the office of president.

He lied. He lied to you to try to get elected.

And you want to support a liar and then claim the moral high ground. “Pretty ridiculous, don’t you think? A classic example of bias and hatred at work.”

Yeah, that is pretty amusing, that you can’t tell the difference between (a) wanting more information so you’ll know what’s going on, and (b) wanting more information only to justify the position you’ve already staked out.

Just in case you’re wondering: a = good, b = bad.

Lib, talking with you is kinda like talking to someone who pretends he can’t tell the difference between navy blue and the blue generally thought of as sky blue, because they’re both blue.

Pass the bong, dude.
How the fuck do you figure there exists a ‘right to The Bomb’?

Have you checked the current status of this little slice of real estate?

How long did this last? a year or two of the Cold War?

Thank you, I try.

Yes. Yes, he did. But one of the critical, fundamental differences is that he believed other things that the above mentioned parties did not-namely that Hussein was likely to initiate an attack on the Us either directly or by proxy.
This assessment of the threat posed by the chemical and biological weapons tha Hussein was thought to posess is constantly missing in the pro-war litany. No one thought that Hussein woud risk what James Baker III called the ‘resounding silence’ in the Iraqi desert- you know, what Condi Rice caled ‘national obliteration’.

They just didn’t. The National Intelligence Estimate that represnted the best estimate of the US intel community said so.

Hussein was not going to attack the US (no, not even by proxy) barrels of mustard gas he had in storage.

I get tired of having to point that out over and over, all the time, constantly.

Matter of fact the Bush Admin (and by extension many of the pro-war crowd) were played for suckers by Iranian intelligence services into believing hyped up bullshit about the threat that Hussein posed. Funny, the DIA, the CIA and teh INR warned the Bush Admin that the INC were liars and thieves up to no good. the Bush Admin deliberately chose to keep trusting a known spy in the midst of these liars and thieves.
I know that you don’t see this decision as a monumental fuck-up that it was. That’s your choice. I think that it’s piss poor way to conduct my nation’s business.

You’re conflating the 9-11 report with the SSCI report.
Two different animals.

Try that all again.

Thanks for bringing up that example, Shayna. It’s one of the classics. You rock.

Damn, it’s hard to keep track of all the Bush lies anymore, there are so many of them.

Hussein was not going to attack the US (no, not even by proxy) barrels of mustard gas he had in storage.

Hussein was not going to attack the US (no, not even by proxy) no matter how many barrels of mustard gas he had in storage.

Then you must be insane. You are, after all, talking to me.

Oops, yes, you’re right, SimonX, my error. All these belated investigations, hard to keep track of 'em all. About time, though.

Sam of Arabia’s contention that the Administration has been completely and unequivocally exonerated of applying pressure on the agencies to tell them what they wanted to hear remains blinkered bullshit, however.

It’s that season again: the season when one side of the political spectrum pretends to be completely confused by the obvious in order to make room for criticisms they know are complete bullshit. I’m still reeling from the actual defense of the “Kerry voted against the troops” line.

If it’s a reeler, then I’d like to hear it. Do tell. Do tell.

Oh, piff, that ain’t shit! You gotta go to National Review Online to get the real stuff. Personal favorite is an article about how Kerry was an “asset” of the KGB. And did you hear about his plan for a Constitutional amendment to force Eagle Scouts into gay marriages? My sister-in-laws hairdresser knows this guy who has a computer…

Ah, yes, Left meets Right. For you, it must be just like looking at the mirror. Come to think of mirrors, many cute furry animals upon seeing their own reflection, start growling.

This coming from Iskander, who has always been one of the most esteemed posters on this board. :rolleyes:

Grrrrr…

I quite empathize. When I gaze in the mirror, and see what appears to be a morphed image combining the characteristics of George Clooney and Sean Connery, I despair that I might ever be esteemed for my mind, rather than dismissed as merely another toothsome chunk of man-cheese.

Then, of course, I shave. And try to find the strength to go on.

Hey 'luciNI thinks you’re cute! Wooooooooo… :smiley:

Why, thank you, RT. You’re quite the bee’s knees yourself! :slight_smile:

And happily so, thanks.

I’ve been doing far too much of that lately.

Your face or your back?

Yo momma!