Kerry's Botched Joke

Great Debates
442

Dio, may I suggest a break. Really this insistence that anyone and everyone who doesn’t see this as you do is intelectually dishonest, lying, etc, is absolutely absurd. We’ve disagreed often but I always wanted to see your take on things. Not so much right now. Think about your position: you know what was in Kerry’s head; his words can be construed only one way; anyone who disagrees with your take is intellectually dishonest; why? because you know what is in their heads, as well, and it is not the same thing coming out of their mouths.

:rolleyes:

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Ain’t that the truth!

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magellan, did YOU ever really think he was trying to say the troops were stupid? Is there really any doubt in your mind that he was talking about Bush? Do you really think Tony Snow didn’t know where to put the word “us” in that sentence? Do you think that Bush or Cheney really think he wanted to commit political suicide by insulting the troops?

I’m trying to give conservatives some credit for being able to see the obvious here. I’m sorry but I just don’t believe the outrage. It all just looks like grandstanding to me. I have yet to hear a single person say they were offended by it who wasn’t already firmly on the right.

445

I really don’t want to go there, been, done, and barfed. Kerry’s anti-war stance and his leadership of the Viet Nam Veterans Against the War is my first recollection of him. I admire him then, and admire him now. Some time ago, I and…another poster…dragged all through all this treason stuff, I’ve read all the News Max and Free Republic “cites” I can stomach for a long, long time.

American troops did some ghastly things in Viet Nam. By comparison, the VC and NVA did worse, and more often. But they’re not ours.

How much and how often are the only real questions, and that is forever beyond our grasp. We will never know, ghosts do not offer cites. My Lai happened. It would be pleasant to believe that this incident was unique, but that would require more drugs than I can afford. Any testimony is moot, no objective standard is possible.

But since we know that at the very least one such incident occured, it takes a leap of faith to assume that no other such atrocities were committed. Such faith would be comforting, I suppose, but I do not share it. The only issue becomes how many, how often. Was Kerry exaggerating? Perhaps, but I doubt willfully. The emotions runnng at that time make the current state of affairs look like tea and crumpets and a game of whist.

In a word, disillussionment. Major overlooked factor in the protest movement. We were all raised patriots (a lot of military brats in the Movement, self included…). We were raised on a charming and fragile faith, that ours were the heroes, that around the world the oppressed and powerless were safer because we were their allies, their protectors. That the fearful and cringing would cry with joy at the news: “The Americans are coming!”
Alas.

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I’ve stated my position more than once. As I’ve said, I don’t think he was trying to insult the troops or did so intentionally. He was trying to score points with a crowd that he figured was anti-Bush (which we can see from his little Bush riff) and anti war. Some of the anti war crowd, particulary among the college-aged is also anti military. They view them either as murderers, enablers, dupes, or schmucks. My take is that he was trying to score points by alluding to those who would be stupid/sucker/desperate enough to join the military—or have to join the military, as they’d have so few options. At the same time he knew he should be avuncular and impart some words of wisdom, thus the advice about staying in school. He segued from Bush into education, then delivered his line. My guess is that he was trying to take an old piece of advice and make it relevant (as any speaker would). The consequences of not studying are minimum wage jobs, lack of opportunity, etc. It used to be true—in his day—that school was a way to stay out of the military and the hell of Vietnam. It seemed to me that in trying to contemporize the advice on his feet, Iraq, which is always on his mind, particularly when coming off a riff about Bush he used the old meme about soldiers who were not able to save themselves from being sent overseas. Now this would be fine for a large part of the college audience, with whom he was trying to ingratiate himself, so without thinking it through completely, he went with it and out it came. It was all spur of the moment. Now, I hate this idea of gotcha when a politician misspeaks. They’re constantly under the microscope so the mistakes they will inevitably make are there for us all to see, again and again. That’s where an apology, or a self-deprecatiing joke comes in might handy. Most people will move on and those that don’t are revealed to be frothing partisans and can be ignored.

As I’ve said, he could have made this go away with a simple. “Wait, that certainly didn’t come out right, now did it?”, and then explain what he intended to say. The fact that he didn’t do that makes me think that the explanation that finally was provided was crafted after the fact. Especially, as has been pointed out be me and others, the “botched joke” about Bush makes no sense.

So now, he misspoke, which, believe it or not, offended some people. I was offended that he wolud denigrate soldiers in harms way, and not immediatley want to apologize even IF he had done so. If there was any doubt, he should have erred on the side of letting the soldiers know he didn’t think them uneducated or low. Their in fucking Iraq, for goodness sake, getting blown up and shot daily.

Now, is there grandstanding, as well. Absolutely. Surely, that can’t surprise you. It’s this atmosphere of Gotcha Politics. It sucks. If you don’t like it, I’d suggest not grandstandiing yourself when the time comes. And it will. And in an instance like this, a better strategy might be to allow people the privilege of their own thoughts. THIS is not a black and white issue.

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You think you could come up with a cite that wasn’t from the World News Daily?

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Here are some real sites if you insist on bringing up Kerry’s war record.

From the NYT

WSJ

Salon
http://dir.salon.com/story/opinion/conason/2004/09/10/schachte/index.html

What Kerry actually did say regarding atrocities in Vietnam
http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx@docID=244.html

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Yeah but…

If you pick on the biggest kid on the block, you take the psychological power away from that kid. By taking on the coalition forces (aka the biggest kid), the Sunnis are attempting to show their might, and win the fear of the people which, is a motivator that trumps our stupid little “hearts and minds” campaign. Seems to me that there is little concern for honorable, man-to-man, face-to-face battle in the insurgency. They haven’t the strength to gather themselves, organize, and commit to actual battle, they leave bombs scattered about, send in children and animals and “martyrs” with ied’s and so forth.

The fact that ground forces haven’t yet correctly adjusted to the tactics of their enemy (they’re used to fighting, and trained to fight an organized army on a battlefield, not sweep for car bombs in an urban center) is one of the two reasons that they’re getting their asses handed to them. The other reason is because administration is afraid to meet the insurgency on its’ level. The enemy can hate you, to paraphrase Caesar, just as long as he fears you, and we haven’t got the stomach for that kind of violence.

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[nitpick] Caligula [/nitpick]

As far as not “having the stomach” for such violence…well, thank heavens! The level of violence required to suppress an active, violent, and popularly supported insurrection is the kind of thing Sherman was talking about. To paraphrase, it totally bites it and pisses everybody off.

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I understand what you’re trying to say here, big guy. On behalf of us all…youi’re welcome!

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Just another item about this story and about NPR. On the morning program this morning, during a discussion about the upcoming elections, the host casually referenced “John Kerry’s comments about troops in Iraq.”

God I hate NPR.

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As I see it Kerry is no comedian,insulting the troops may not have been his intention, and now has apologized.

Being sent to Iraq to be maimed and die was not very well thought out by Mr. Bush. It may not have been his intention but it has happened. Had he listened to his father George we could have put all our efforts into finding the terrorists in Aphganistan and maybe the seed of terrorism would not have grown to what it now is, I doubt that terrorism will ever be stopped,any more than the war on drugs or crime. His ego has caused a lot of unnecessary deaths and angered a lot of our friends in other countries; the troops should be insulted by going to a situation that could have been avoided or waited until it became necessary.

Monavis

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[nitpick] Aren’t they one in the same? [/nitoick]

Not having the stomach is, ironically, a double-edged sword. It saves a modicum of lives in the front end, but it can drag the conflict on virtually forever, taking more lives in the long run. If you don’t escalate your response to the violence you are falling victim to beyond the degree of what that violence is, you will never change that level of violence.

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Bull$hit.

Bull$hit again. Remember, many of these sponges volunteered. You’ve also called them stupid. You’ve also said that those in Vietnam were the war criminals Kerry claimed. Those would be insults.

[QUOTE]

I can’t believe you are truly this clueless. Therefore I must assume you are dishonest.

You really have to split hairs not to take what his actual words, as reported, as not referring to the troops.

No, listen carefully. Kerry said a sentence that effectively said, “our troops are stupid”. Oddly, those called stupid found that to be insulting. The fact that he meant to say something else was not known to them. Yes, that is partly the media’s fault. However, the troops were not feigning feeling insulted. They were insulted. From what they knew, they had every right to be insulted. Even though I’m not in the military, and never have been, I was insulted. Why? Because the military provided the means for my dad and 6 of his brothers all got their Ph. D.'s or M.D.'s. None of them were/are stupid. They helped pay for their 5 sisters to get their degrees, so indirectly the military paid for them, too. And then their husbands, all of whom got Ph. Ds or MDs - except for the uncle who was an officer in the infantry in Vietnam - also through the military. From the evidence displayed here, they are all much brighter than you.

No he didn’t. His first response was to angrily deny that he needed to apologize. This time it was not the media’s fault. Kerry did not apologize until long afterwards. For the entire two hours that I was sitting in that line, Kerry did no more than offer his explanation and angrily refuse to apologize. At this point, the offense was his angrily denying that he needed to apologize for saying what he said. I know if I told my wife, "Honey, I meant to say ‘you have a cute ass’ not ‘you are a lard ass’ " without, “I’m sorry,” I’d still be in serious trouble. In fact, even with the “I’m sorry”, there’d still be hell to pay.

Wrong. I needed to apologize every bit as much as I would have in the above example.

Number one, it wasn’t immediate, and we were watching this unfold more or less live. He very clearly and vehemently say he was not going to apologize to Bush, the troops, or anyone else, and that he had nothing to apologize for. It would be like me claiming I didn’t have to apologize to my wife for accidentally saying something cruel, because I hadn’t meant to. Of course, he had to apologize and refusing to do so was even more insulting and offensive than the statement itself. And apologizing late in the day looked just like a damage control move, which of course meant that it would not undo the damage.

I simple, immediate-upon-realizing-the-mistake apology would have been effective. Now, even though I voted for him in the last election even though he owns more suburbans than he has kids and ran as the environmentalist, he is off my list in 2008. He is clearly just another politician, and not a very bright one at that.

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SlowMindThinking,

(applause)

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First off, the audience laughed when he made that joke. There were no gasps of shock, just laughter. I’m betting the first time he realized that the joke didn’t work was when he heard about it in the news.

Second, I would be a bit pissed off as well. He’s being used as a whipping boy by the Republicans- they don’t have, well, anything of substance to argue, so they’re pounding on this “Kerry hates the military” meme. Sure, he could’ve apologized abjectly- but remember, in the version of the event he experienced, the joke worked even though he flubbed it. Why should he have to apologize for a deliberately mis-represented version of the joke?

Third, he DID apologize. Within two days, as I recall. Unfortunately, the damage had already been done, as is evidenced by this multiple-page thread. It’s a shame that not a single one of the PRESIDENT’S gaffes have gotten this much play, isn’t it? Hell, Kerry’s not even running for anything.

458

You can NOT be serious. Damn near EVERY one of his gaffes gets as much play as this. Google bushisms, and let me know what you find…

Still, Bush, while a bumbling jackass, hasn’t made the kind of goof that Lurch did.

He’s made plenty, but not one like that.

459

When was the last time a Bushism got ten pages, like this thread has?

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Really? Several people have already mentioned that bit he did about looking for WMD under his desk. And that was intentional. Do you think that little comedy routine was not disrespectful of those who have lost their lives because of him? Diogenes already pointed out the one about how he said he is engaged in treason (looking for ways to harm America). I’m sure with just a few moments I could find many more examples of him making just the kind of goof that Kerry did.

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And let’s not forget “bring it on” either. I wonder if our resident righties think that Bush should have apologized for that one.