KGS you silly boy, get your ass in here

I’m not qualified to go into detail, someone else might be able to help out. But the basics are that we rely on pattern recognition for survival. We recognise that the sun comes up every day and sets every evening, our daily life is based around this pattern (a legitimate pattern.) We get stung by a bee more than once and we learn to stay away from bees. Everything we learn is based on pattern recognition. The down side to this is that we tend to see patterns where there are none, and we also put meaning to patterns that have no meaning.

You’re still looking for patterns, you’ve just narrowed down what patterns you consider to be significant. That doesn’t mean your refined patterns really are significant though.

“Looking for” is possibly too strong a term. You aren’t necessarily consciously looking for patterns, but your brain is designed to recognise them, even when you aren’t looking for them, so they “jump out” at you. Once you note the beginnings of a pattern, you take even more note of other details that fit the pattern, and you subconsciously discard information that doesn’t fit the pattern.

The train of logic goes like this. As per my example, people tend to make their experiences fit into their world view (the negative person percieves neutral experiences as negative, the positive person percieves the same neutral experiences as positive.) So then, someone who believes that psychic phenomona exist, will see a series of coincidences as evidence of psychic phenomona, even if it isn’t. Someone else, who feels that psychic phenomona doesn’t exist, will see the same series of coincidences as an interesting collection of random events.

When you write a novel and then find some startling connections with someone else poem, you naturally consider it to be evidence of some kind of psychic ability, even though it may not be (and IMO, probably isn’t.)

Another good example of this is when the devoutly religious see images of religious figures, such as Jesus, in clouds, stains on a window, or even in a slice of toast. Their brain picks up on patterns that fit with their own perception of the world. I’d probably look at the same clouds, stains, or piece of toast and see pictures of dogs and aeroplanes. Both of these interpretations are equally (in)valid.

As far as the sensations go. We all experience interesting feelings when unusual things happen. I think most people have had the hairs on their body standup, the skin on their head crawl, and felt a strange “expanding-of-horizons” sensation when confronted with an unusual experience (a good movie can evoke this kind of emotional response.) Now I’m not saying this is the same feeling that you have when you see a particularly compelling connection, what I am saying is that the body and mind can respond in unusual ways to what are, essentially, mundane experiences. Just because you feel like something incredible has happened, doesn’t mean it has.

By “nothing special happens”, I mean nothing that appears to be a psychic event. Obviously special things happen to people all the time. I have a fantastic life, everyday I generally have some thought along the lines of “wow, here I am, isn’t this good?” But it’s due to fairly mundane things like my relationship with my wife, my daughter, my job satisfaction etc. I think that the world and universe, as currently understood, is a pretty special place.

As others have said, I’d be even more impressed if some kind of psychic ability was shown to exist, unfortunately, I don’t believe that any of the evidence for it is convincing.

Okay, that makes sense. You say these are unconscious patterns, though. Wouldn’t it be useful, to devise a system that makes these patterns conscious, so the person can identify the negative patterns and discard them, and focus solely on the positive patterns? Or perhaps, help a person identify the positive patterns that are useful, so they don’t get stung by bees all the time?

We’re on the same page here. However…you asked me once (or maybe it was Bryan Ekers, can’t remember) whether I thought one perspective was more useful than the other. I said, it makes no difference. How do you feel about it? Is it always better to disbelieve psychic phenomena, or could such a perspective be useful, whether or not the patterns have real objective meaning?

Interesting example. How can you prove that such a phenomena isn’t actually Jesus manifesting himself? After all, when these events happen, millions of people believe them on faith.

Again, we’re on the same page. Indeed, the whole crux of this methodology is identifying the useful sensations from the irrational ones.

Let’s talk about ESP. Stephen King once wrote in a novel (I can’t remember which one) a character who said, “I don’t believe in ESP, except for the natural type that people use all the time.” That’s an interesting statement. Have you ever felt so closely connected to someone, that when you think of something to say, the other person says exactly what’s on your mind? Or, let’s say a close relative dies (or gets in serious trouble…grr.) The phone rings, or you notice mail in your inbox, or an Instant Message arrives, and even before you answer/read it, you get the feeling that something BAD has just happened. Has this ever happened to you?

I see what you’re saying. The difference, I think, is that I am something of a thrill-seeker. These events, these patterns I seek, can become extremely frightening. However, I don’t shrink under the fear. Indeed, I tend to thrive on it. It’s just as exciting as riding a roller coaster, watching a horror movie, or driving your car 120 MPH down the freeway as all the cops and helicopters in L.A. follow you (which, obviously, has legal implications I’d prefer to avoid!) Yes, sometimes it gets me into trouble. But you can’t win every battle; in fact, you can learn much more from defeat than victory. I’m much, much further along The Path than when I started this game, and that alone counts for something.

It is your choice to do so. And I appreciate it greatly, that you state your belief as a matter of personal opinion, without insisting that I conform to your views. That speaks volumes about your character as a human being.

Great nick, BTW. I remember way back when, that became the “ALL YOUR BASE” of the SDMB for a short while. :wink: :cool:

WTF.

A magician’s skills may be the same as of a conman, but the intent is different.

A magician is here to entertain you. He just here to astund you. He’s not going to make you part with your money, make you worship him as if he is the long-predicted saviour or make you do things you wouldn’t want to do.

Which what most psyhics are.

Go out and see the world more, okay? When back, bring pie.

He doesn’t have to. The burden of proof lies squarely on the shoulders of the person claiming it to be something other than what it seems like: a burn mark on toast.

Where does this phrase come from? I see it all the time, but I have no idea where it comes from. Is it South Park?

I’ve just been watching on the sidelines until now, but I’ll respond to this, as I have some recent personal history that fits your hypothetical.

My parents had nine children, of which I was the eighth. I’m 50 now, and several times over the years I have had the years that feeling that “something bad has happened”. And in talking to other people, I’m convinced these types of feelings are fairly common.

If I have that feeling a couple of times a year, and given that I’m nearly the youngest of my siblings (the oldest is 13 years my elder), there is pretty good chance that somewhere along the line I’ll have one of those feelings sometime shortly before something bad actually does happen to one of them. It wouldn’t even be that much of a coincidence to get the feeling immediately beforehand.

In fact, given that my siblings and I are getting up in years, it’s a near certainty that if I have those kinds of feelings now and then I’m going to be right sometime. All of us (meaning myself and my siblings) will die in the next 50 or so years, guaranteed. And quite probably most of us will go sooner than that.

Even when you reduce the number of people in your immediate family to 2 or 3, the odds still aren’t so high that this won’t happen to thousands of people each day in this country alone, based solely on coincidence.

Actually, I’m asking if you have any way to support your earlier statements that those who disagree with you do so out of prejudice or other personal flaws. It’s fairly easy to throw off a claim that one’s critics are prejudiced, stunted or even actively suppressing key knowledge, but more difficult to justify these statements when questioned about them directly.

The posters who’ve heaped scorn on you haven’t helped their case by doing so, either, but I don’t see you providing any reasonable support for your philosophy beyond it being, apparently, “interesting”.

Well, okay, if you say so.

Actually, they’re more like bullies than bigots. Kind of like the kid next to you on the bus, who grabs your arms and socks you in the head with your own fist, saying, “Stop hitting yourself! Stop hitting yourself!” and all the other kids around you, including some teachers, point and laugh. That’s okay, though. I became a bully myself, for a short period in high school, so I understand the attraction – the absolute freedom of power, surrounded by your peers who support you, absent any rules or boundaries. It’s addictive, for some people. It’s a tremendous (albeit short-lived) boost to one’s self-esteem.

“Interesting” is basically the long and short of it, that’s all I’m trying to express (I think.) After all, it was an MPSIMS thread, and now we’re in The Pit (though it’s sorta turned into GD, now?) If it were GQ or GD, I never would have bothered to participate.

Did you ever get the feeling, though, right before someone close actually died? Trust me, it’s different. The “fake” feeling, is more like uneasy fear, paranoia. The “real” feeling is deeper, like dread in the pit of your stomach. Like, you know, but you don’t want to know.

It’s not consistent, either. I got that feeling when my grandfather died, and also my Aunt who died of lung cancer (which, granted, was inevitable.) My cousin who killed herself, though, came as a total shock. I had to read the email twice before my brain could interpret the words.

Funny thing about my cousin (well, not “ha ha” funny, naturally) – two weeks before she died, I got the strange uncanny feeling, that maybe I should reach out to her, find out how she’s doing. (And I never think of doing that – I rarely see that side of my family, except at reunions and weddings.) I knew she’d had problems recently, but there had been no news for several months. So I dismissed the notion as pure illusion, just a random thought.

Too bad I didn’t act on it, huh? :frowning:

Yes, that’s all fascinating, but how does it prove the existence of precognition?

And you’ve never had the “real” feeling when nothing happened, or never had the “fake” feeling when something did happen? Never had the “fake” feeling and then later said to yourself “oh, of course, I should have known, I had the feeling and just didn’t recognize that it was the “real” feeling”?

I’ve had the “something bad” feeling many times. And although I have no yardstick to indicate if this was a “real” or “fake” feeling, I will say they certainly seemed real at the time.

However, my thinking is that they are all “fake”, and any alignment with actual events is coincidence, or just natural extrapolation of the existing situation. For example, when my father died of cancer, it took no particular talent to see it coming.

Over the years in my immediate family there have been several “bad things” and several deaths. I’ve lost a niece (my brother’s two-year-old), my grandfather and grandmother, both my parents, and most recently my sister. This doesn’t count family for which there is no direct blood relationship, such as my father-in-law, my wife’s grandmother (who lived with us), my wife’s aunt, and various extended family members such as two uncles, great-aunts and uncles, close friends or family of friends, and before I met my current wife, my then fiancé.

I don’t think my situation is all that unusual. With that group to pick from, it doesn’t seem like much of a stretch that at some point one of my feelings of doom will coincide with actual doom.

So far, in my case the feelings have never lined up very well with actual events. But with billions of people around the world in the same boat, you can be certain it will happen, and happen quite a bit, just through coincidence.

Not so much a lie, more like getting confused while contradicting yourself, then getting your hackles up and angrily defending yourself in a shrill, clumsy manner. Happens to the best of us…
…when we were in 5th grade.

KGS ever gonna answer my question?

CMC fnord!

Or, to put it in another way, actual realisation of your unfound and irrational fears feed your paranoia, and if you are paranoid, once in a while you will ‘get it’, and that ‘hit’ will have far more significant than all your other ‘misses’

The human brain has a remarkable capcity for pessimism.

This, at least, demonstrates a certain prophetic power of yours. Too bad the prophecies are self-fulfilling.

I gave you a chance to speak your theories while I would pay respectful attention. You declined to do so. I’m not, therefore, dismissing your theories; I have no idea what they are. I’m dismissing you, as you’re declining to enter into the discussion.

This is the sort of thing you can say that will lead to my not dismissing you. This is helpful; it actually consists of communication.

Interesting theory. What has led you to believe that it’s true? Is there anything that makes you believe this theory is true that you believe ought to be persuasive to a reasonable person other than you and that you will not decline to tell us about?

Daniel

Were you one of the students laughing in a circle, or the small nerdy kid getting pushed around in the middle?

Should you care to torture yourself by re-reading the linked thread, you will realize that KGS has a way of not responding to direct questions that might prove inconvenient.

Look, people. This isn’t a debate anymore. This is a fucking interrogation. This thead keeps distracting me from my work, and I’m way behind on the novel. You understand that, right? Work? Money? Don’t deny it, at least the OP of this thread was honest enough to admit his baseline intention:

Fine. If it’s entertainment you want, you have to pay me $20/question – psyche! No, I don’t want money. But you do have to offer up something of yourself, some kind of insight that proves to me you are actually interested in debating the question. It doesn’t have to be anything personal or intimate (although I’d love to eat your liver with some fava beans and a nice chianti) but it does have to be more than just one question after another. Like Bryan Ekers, Jodi, and 1920’s Style Death Ray. I read the “aura” projected by their words (yes, it was a cold reading) and determined their questions were, in fact, genuine. I was right. Everyone else…not so much.

I’ll check in tomorrow to see if anyone takes up my offer.

Oh, nonsense. I started off by telling you about my own journey to skepticism. Want more? Okay: when I was sixteen, I read Tarot cards for people. I freaked some people out with the spooky accuracy of my predictions, including when I described the home problems plaguing a guy that I’d only just met. I kept a journal of my readings, and when I went back over the ones depicting my own life, I was able to pick out eerily accurate predictions of what would happen with me.

I believe now that these Tarot readings were very valuable to me, but they were valuable in the same way that reading a lovely novel is valuable, not in the same way that performing a scientific experiment is valuable.

Daniel

As I said, KGS will attempt anything at all to avoid answering a direct question. He has no credibility, no integrity, no ability to carry on a proper conversation, nothing.

Why don’t you go write yourself a little self-respect ya freakin usless git?