And the difference is? Either way, the results are the same-we have no reason to believe anything beyond that you’re full of shit.
Nevertheless, research into psychic phenomena has been and is still being pursued by thousands of people. Do you know of any psychic research breakthroughs comparable to, say, the invention of the steam engine or the smelting of iron or some other long-past-and-much-built-upon scientific accomplishment? Is my asking for these results a sign of addiction, prejudice, ignorance or illogic?
Isn’t this also true of purely random events? How do you distinguish between a psychic observation and a random guess? Can a psychic ever give a list of conditions that’ll allow him to perform better than chance? A scientist, if he wants to move a large rock, can specify what size lever or pulley he needs, and the position and strength of a fulcrum, Given these and some other small number of tools, he can move just about any rock, anytime. How many “tools” does a psychic need? If there are truly effectively infinite (i.e. every molecule in the universe has be lined up just right), would it be fair to say that the psychic will never be able to replicate his feat? Is that the fault of the existence of the prejudiced, stunting, illogical scientific method? If so, please explain how.
You’re making quite a few claims, here. I’m asking that some be clarified.
Tom got descriptive.
I do not choose to get mean in these Fora.
Deja vous.
Damn the torpedos and full speed ahead, longitudinal studies that take into account multiple variables and massive numbers of individuals are so useless for figuring anything out.
God, he’s vicious when he’s roused.
(Scrapes FinnAgain up from the floor.)
All clean now sir! (Bowing as he leaves.)
Oh, like, wow man.
Let me give you a little analogy. So, many antipsychotic medications have something like a 30% success rate initially. That’s why people sometimes have to cycle through a few. Some people never respond well to any medication. Individual differences generate differential responsiveness to these medications, and therefore, some medications only work with a subset of the population. So why is it that scientific studies can assess the efficacy of psychiatric medication, but not psychic phenomena? Does this most excellent analogy work for you? Even if something only works some of the time, for some people, in some situations, science can still measure it. Scary I know.
Not that I’m aware of. But there wasn’t much advancement in the process of making books, until the printing press, or the science of computers, until the microchip. Just look, how fast those technologies exploded. It is, in fact, illogical to assume that no possible advancement in psychic science is possible at all, merely based on the fact that little progress has been made in the last several centuries. Somebody, tomorrow or in a hundred years, might invent an E-meter that actually works, or a methodology for defining, and explaining, everything from ghost sightings to ESP to premonitions. Heck, for all I know such an invention exists, and it’s been actively repressed. (But that’s just baseless paranoia, I know.)
First of all, there are no truly random events. Even some scientists will accept this. Second, as to how to objectively distinguish a true psychic connection from a random event – well, that’s where I’m stumped.
You see, this brings us back to the subjective nature of our experience with reality. Let’s put it this way – if you believe, wholeheartedly, that the Apollo landings were faked, or that events like 9/11 were deliberately planned and executed by the Bush Administration…how am I going to convince you that you’re full of shit? I could spend hours and days talking, showing you evidence, showing where your logic has failed. You, on the other hand, could just as easily say, “It’s all a conspiracy,” or “That’s what they want you to believe,” stuff like that. I’m sure, you’ve seen it before – nutball conspiracy theorists post to the SDMB all the time.
Now…how am I to explain, that something in my head is a “real” psychic connection, and not mere coincidence? I can only say, that’s how it looks to me. I can’t prove how my thought process works, that’s impossible. And frankly, it’s rather malicious to flatly state things like, “Oh, you’re full of shit,” or “You’re lying,” or “You’re a raving psychotic,” just because you don’t believe what I say.
From your point of view, it is all a random collision of meaningless coincidences. My viewpoint is much the same…except, the coincidences aren’t meaningless. It’s more philosophy than science, really. But it does make life more interesting. And that’s the most important thing, right?
Interesting that you brought up psychiatry. You realize, that nobody completely understands how the human brain works? We understand some things, like how certain parts of the brain do certain things. And yet, for the most part, we don’t know WHY they work, or even HOW they work. For instance, nobody has yet proven, or even devised a theory, about how the brain produces consciousness, and self-awareness, and personality. It’s all up in the frontal lobe somewhere, that’s all we’ve uncovered so far.
As for medication…well, I’m a little bitter about psychiatry, and medical science in general. (Especially in this conservative, capitalist age, where drug companies invent new chronic illnesses just to sell the new pill they invented, or therapists who think the best way to treat someone is to make them think they are a permanent victim of whatever abuse they suffered.) Naturally, we’ve come a long way from the dark ages of the 1950’s and earlier, when mental patients were given shock treatment, insulin shock, and frontal lobotomies. Back then, we thought those treatments were reasonable and effective. We shudder at them, now. Someday, we will shudder just as much at the psychoactive chemicals that constitute the bulk of “treatment” for mental disorders.
As we understand the brain better, so too will we understand psychic science. Or, maybe not. But I’d like to think that psychic science, if we ever understand how it works, can have dramatic applications in such conditions as schizophrenia.
Jesus Christ, what a bunch of howling nonsense. Magicians don’t purport to be anything other than entertainers. If you’re going to deride magicians for “lying” are you going to pit Christopher Reeve because he didn’t really fly in the Superman movies? It’s the same fucking thing, nimrod, except Superman isn’t trying to convince you that you can fly, whereas psychics don’t let you in on the little secret that they’re full of shit. If you can’t see the difference, I imagine life is very disappointing and scary for you.
I don’t recall making that assumption. I’m asking about the psychic baby-steps that are the rough equivalent of a book or pre-microchip computer, or even the six basic machines that have been casually used by humans not for centuries, but millennia. Can you point out any such psychic accomplishment, in the thousands of years such experimentation has been going on and which continues today?
Forbidden/suppressed knowledge has often been able to evade control, even before the printing press and microchip. If your theoretical E-Meter existed and could do what you describe, how is it being suppressed? Why would the inventor not publicly display his accomplishment and demonstrate its effectiveness? Would that require all molecules in the universe to be correctly aligned?
That’s going to remain a major problem, I’m afraid. A scientist who says “I have a machine to look inside the human body” can demonstrate it by showing them X-rays, MRI images, on a wide variety of test subjects under various conditions etc. A psychic who claims the same ability, but only some of the time, with some people, when skeptics and cameras are not present and when the universe is precisely aligned, etc. Would it be fair to say the former’s accomplishment is useful while the latter’s is not?
I can think of several possible methods, actually, which could constitute strong evidence of your claimed abilities (once you actually make a definitive claim, that is), but you’ve already dismissed “controlled” studies" as a measuring tool. I’ve also deliberately avoided anything that might be construed as a personal attack (malicious or otherwise). Frankly, I haven’t said anything remotely akin to “Oh, you’re full of shit,” or “You’re lying,” or “You’re a raving psychotic.”
Can you explain the meaning that you see? What’s the overall significance of tenuous psychic phenomena? What are the basic premises of your philosophy?
Actually, comic-book writer/artist Gardner Fox suggested that parallel universes existed where superheroes could fly, and that writers like himself were somehow attuned, allowing them to create fictional (in our universe) stories that were actually accurate accounts of what was really happening to Superman and others in other dimensions.
He came up with the idea to explain how Barry (Flash) Allen could, as a child, have read comic book adventures about Jay (Flash) Garrick. The comic book writers on Allen’s world (eventually dubbed “Earth-1”) had unknowingly documented the adventures on Garrick’s world (eventually dubbed “Earth-2”). Fox could have claimed 100% sincerity (superheroes exist in alternate dimensions and psychic comic-book writers are unknowingly documenting the adventures rather than creating them) and there’d be no way to prove him wrong.
A 2002 episode of Justice League (“Legends”) was based on this premise and dedicated to Fox, who passed away in 1986.
Your point is? We can understand some aspects of it really well. Science has pretty well established that the mind is in the brain, that neural processes depend on electrical and chemical communication, that certain functions appear to be localized in certain structures, that certain molecules are specifically involved in plasticity, excitation, inhibition… We’ve learned a hell of a lot. To date, science has found no evidence of psychic ability. At all. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist, but I’ll be damned if I’m going to spend a lot of time investigating it the way things stand.
At least you’re consistent.
Ok, I’ll field this one. This will probably confirm in many minds that I’m nothing but a raving lunatic, but hey, they think that anyway, so who cares. Besides, once I get published, I’ll have the authority to call myself “eccentric” instead. 
Anyways, here goes…
I firmly believe, that many events in this world, are fated to happen. Not every single little thing…naturally, free will still plays a part in our daily lives. But the BIG events – everything from massive, headline-grabbing events like Pearl Harbor and the assassination of JFK, to more personal events like a close relative suddenly dying in a car accident – are pre-destined.
Now, not every single detail is planned in advance. (Except for earthquakes and volcano eruptions…those kinda have to happen where the stress builds up, because they can’t go anywhere else.) For example, the universe didn’t require that Ted Kaczynski become the Unabomber. It could have been anyone. It could have been Joe Schmoe in a rat-infested apartment in Alberta, instead of Ted Kaczynski in a small Montana shack. Basically, Ted Kaczynski chose to fill that role. Others may have applied for the “job”, or had the opportunity to become the Unabomber. What’s important, is that The Universe wanted a Unabomber. Why? Who knows? I can’t answer why.
Here’s the next thing. When these major, earth-shattering events happen, they send out “shock waves” through the Time/Space continuum. Not just forward in time, but backwards in time. That, is why premonitions work, why they are real. I can’t explain the real-world connection, at least not in a scientific sense. My best guess is that these events trigger certain “rhythms”, certain changes in the matrix of atoms, molecules, and electrical currents. Whatever method is used, the human brain is, indeed, sensitive to these rhythms, if only just. (That’s why we can’t predict every single little thing that happens. Random, chaotic events happen all the time, and aren’t planned in advance, so they are never predicted.)
Granted, most people are highly adverse to this type of philosophy, and contradicts what most people believe about science, and even God. Mainly, because people want to believe that only GOOD things are supposed to happen, and BAD things are the anomaly. I don’t believe that. I believe that Evil is just as necessary as Good. It’s all about balance. After all, if all Evil People were suddenly stamped out…what would Good People have left to do?? We’d have to create our own Evil, just as an excuse to stamp that out. (Which, I’ve just realized, explains what the fuck we’re doing in Iraq right now…)
Remember, this is philosophy, not science. I can’t scientifically prove any of this, how it works, who’s behind it all. Certainly, I don’t expect anyone to accept what I say on faith. I’m just explaining one of the basic tenets of my personal philosophy, because Bryan Ekers asked me to, and he asked me nicely. 
Are there records of multiple sensitives having premonitions about the Sept. 11 attacks, assuming these are sufficiently major? Can you cite an example of a major event that was anticipated by sufficiently sensitive individuals, who recorder their predictions before said event?
And weren’t the attack on Pearl Harbor and the assassination of JFK planned in advance? They, along with the Sept. 11 attacks, weren’t “random, chaotic events”. Were they predicted (I can’t find a reliable account of Jeanne Dixon’s prediction)? Are there any current psychic predictions on record discussing major events of the next few months?
How do you feel about dreams, as a common mechanism for alleged premonitions? Is the occasional vivid dream that resembles a later real-life event a result of a time-shockwave, or can it be purely random coincidence? Can you suggest a possible way of separating the two?
How is your philosophy better in any way than one based around the scientific method? Is it purely a matter of arbitrary personal choice?
Actually, our society’s incredible achievements using the scientific method compare to no psychic power ever being observed under controlled conditions.
Why does anyone believe in a demonstration of psychic powers when the psychic can simply cheat?
But here’s an example of a psychic power working 100%:
'Mike obtained 100% results during the “open” test, quickly and positively, showing that he was quite able to use his powers. ’
Well that certainly shows you’re not psychic. :rolleyes:
Despite enormous amounts of claims and testing, no psychic power has ever been observed. Then you calmly claim that not only have you got evidence, but you even know how often these powers work.
Of course I want to know more.
As for your paranoia that I want to attack you (or any psychic), reread the Lord Ashtar thread. I was perfectly polite to him throughout. Once you refused to answer my polite questions and sprayed around insults, certainly people started to dislike your attitude.
Your postings and lack of understanding suggest otherwise.
As I already stated, nobody attacked Lord Ashtar in his thread.
Oh look! **You are wrong ** - and the evidence was in a thread you posted to.
I have also posted a link to a thread which lasted almost a year in which I tested a ‘remote viewer’. At all times we were polite to each other.
It certainly is difficult to debate with you, with your wild incorrect claims, refusal to offer any evidence and rude attitude throughout.
Umm…9/11 was predicted. In fact, it’s in the most famous precognitive book of all time, The Book of Revelation. (Yes, I know, the Bible is mostly fiction. But people did write it. And 50% of all Americans believe it is literal fact.) Here is the passage (with the relevant part bolded):
Yes, I know. You are all thinking: “BUT THAT COULD MEAN ANYTHING!” And yes, the time lengths don’t match up (1260 days? WTF?) and the earthquake makes no sense at all. However, this is as close an accurate predition you are gonna get. People assume, that someone with “the gift” can accurately describe, on command, exactly what’s going to happen, right down to the flight numbers and the time of impact. It doesn’t work that way at all, and anyone who tells you differently (especially if they ask you for money first) is a liar.
Dreams, indeed, are the most common wormhole for premonitions. How to tell whether it’s coincidence or not? Well, that’s tricky. However, in my experience, I did have a nasty premonition once. I don’t have time to describe it, because I have to wrap up quick. I can tell you, after that dream, I was SO freaked out, I called in sick to work and stayed in bed all day long. I even told a friend about it (so there is one person, somewhere in the world, who can corroborate this story…sure wish I’d kept in touch with him, eh?) and later when the dream actually happened, he said, “Well, I’ve always wondered about premontions. That proves it right there!”
You are asking two separate questions here.
(1) Scientific Method is critically important to my Philosophy. However, I do not rely on Scientific Method to prove everything.
(2) Yes, it’s all about choice. But choice is never arbitrary. Even if you pick a number at random, you may think it’s a random choice, but your cognitive process has already decided the number, long before you even think about choosing a number. (Does that make sense? I really have to run now…)
What we’re saying is that there’s essentially no difference between this and random guessing. They’re equally useful and equally accurate. You’ve said as much in this sentence. Post hoc analysis of any ambiguous quote can be twisted any way you want. You seem to acknowledge this, so I don’t get what the obstacle is.
Is your contention that psychic powers exist but their effects are below the threshold of random guessing so we can’t detect them using the scientific method? That’s a hell of a power y’all have got…
There are a few similarities, but you have to be selective in choosing the passages, after being selective in choosing the verses, and ignore everything that doesn’t fit. Are there any verses in Revelation that predict events that have not yet occurred? Can you list them and what they predict?
Besides, if 50% of Americans believe in the literal truth of this and other passages, doesn’t that make their views the majority (in the U.S., at least)? If anyone can claim to be a minority, I’d say it’s those who don’t believe. Not that majority/minority opinion should matter in the least.
How does it work, then? If the predictions are as vague as the quotes section from Revelation, how can they be put to any use and distinguished from random guesses?
Did you ever have another experience? Have you ever had a vivid frightening dream that never came true in any apparent manner? Have you had recent vivid dreams you could describe here, thus going on record before many witnesses, who can then compare it to major events and look for similarities?
I don’t understand. Do those who believe or don’t believe in psychics feel that way because they were destined to? How is it a choice is it’s not arbitrary? Can the choice be thoughtful and reasoned?
What methods of proof other than the scientific do you rely on? Your dream may be convincing and compelling, but is there anything you can show us that will be convincing?
KGS, a couple of things:
First: You say:
I am confused. Haven’t you just conceded that this “prediction,” which is “as close to accurate as you’re gonna get” in fact is not at all accurate, in fact “could mean anything”? If this is as good as predictions get, I’m afraid I don’t see any basis for any thinking person to believe in them. Why would you believe in something that doesn’t make sense?
Second: The passage in Revelation that you cite as alluding to 9/11 seems like a particularly bad example of a “precognitive” psychic foretelling, or indeed of a prophecy that was fulfilled by 9/11. Much of this passage, like much of all of Revelation, is very difficult to understand because the symbolism and allusions used by John are by no means clear. But whatever else may be going on in this passage, what is generally understood is that the “Great City,” spiritually decayed to a “Sodom” or an “Egypt,” is Jerusalem, the city outside of which Jesus Christ was crucified. (Jesus Christ being the obvious best candidate as Lord of these two messengers, who afterward ascend into Heaven.) Jerusalem; not New York City. The Beast has been identified as everyone from Satan to Napoleon, but the City is pretty well conceded to be Jerusalem. So it seems like you’re having to work awfully hard to shove the square peg of this passage into the round hole of 9/11.