Alessan, if you want to see your entire country as your extended family, thats your own choice.
given the choice of wether I would help a member of my family over that of a stranger?
I would help whoever needed my help more.
you say that no palestinian has ever sworn to protect your live with his own.
What has your country ever offered a palestinian to make that offer? No Korean has ever offered his life to protect mine, dosent mean that I see my nationality as more worthy of existence that a Korean.
And if you don’t look after yourself and yours first you’ll find yourself in a cattle car with all your loved ones. Sorry.
I can’t be responsible for the entire world - I’m not that great a man. There are 5 or 6 million I can look after, and I’m going to do it. I’m not saying that my people are better than anyone else` I’m just saying they’re mine.
Rightly or wrongly I was truly sickened by the article. As I read it, it expressed no moral concern about the murder and mayhem against Israelis (or against Palestinians, either), and focused on a fact that should go without saying – Israelis resent people who commit murder and mayhem against them. There are lots of sensible pro-Palestinian arguments made by posters on this very serious topic, but I felt that the article didn’t do this. YMMV. Many posters found nothing wrong with the article or approved of it.
I worded the thread title as a shorthand way of conveying what I objected to about the article. In retrospect, I ought not to have used quotation marks, although I did not expect readers to be misled, since my paraphrase was intentionally written in a style that would not be used by the Guardian.
that’s my theory. And the issues aren’t all that different, either (both in favor of getting rid of lawyers, both in favor of vouchers, replace Mexican Fat burners w/ Israel, and you’ve got yerself a clone).
I find this an absolutely chilling statement. I believe with my whole heart in the avowal NEVER AGAIN. I take it as a personal vow myself and yet – sometimes I think the people who are most rapidly forgetting the lessons of WWII are the Israelis.
I am not overly critical of America’s involvement in WWII, but I think it is undeniable that earlier involvement in the European theater, or even a more active role in accepting Jewish refugees, would have prevented the loss of thousands, maybe millions, of Jewish lives. But we didn’t do that. We did not step up when we had the chance to, in 1936 or '38 or '40 or '42. Why not?
Because we were looking after ourselves and our own. You needed our help as much as any group of people have ever needed it – and by “you” I mean the Jews, and by “us,” I mean the rest of the world – and, street by street, village by village, country by country, we let you be carted away because we were minding our own business and looking after our own.
And now you stand over there and say “Life sucks”? Well, it sure sucked for you guys, and not too long ago, either.
You know, if the rest of the world takes your advice, and the Arabs ever do try to push you into the sea, then God help you, because the rest of the world won’t. We’ll be over here, following your shining example, taking care of our own.
I am not naive, anti-semitic, pro-palestinian, homophobic, militaristic, anti-Christian, misogynistic, pro-corrupt-dictatorship, nor do I oppose freedom of speech (although I’m starting to reconsider).
Nor are we all former contributors to the ACLU and Amnesty International, world travellers with alleged encyclopedic knowledge into other culture’s motivations, with cousins who married black women to boot.
In our favor, most of us don’t get our opinions from blogs.
Jodi, did I at any point say that we shouldn’t help other nations? That we shouldn’t be as moral as we possibly can without sacrificing our own security? I would love to be able to help the Palestinians - really. I just don’t see any way of doing it without risking my own life and that of my friends.
Listen, maybe I was too harsh in what I said. I may just be very, very cynical about the world’s goodwill. We come from different places - you’re from a big, strong, permanant country who can afford to act out of purely moral reasons, which has the confidence to be magnanimous. I come for a place that’s smaller, weaker, more… precarious. It colors your view of the world.
The phrase “Never Again”, which you quoted , has several meanings: to most of the world, it means: “we will never allow this horror to happen again”. To us Israelis, it means “we will never allow this horror to happan again to us, and we will do whatever it takes to prevent it. So watch out.” Less noble, perhaps. But more immediate.
I’m not december. I don’t believe my country is always right, and you have to believe that it hurts me when it isn’t, and that I dearly want that to change. I just don’t think that being right or wrong has any bearing on my loyalties and obligations. Being right takes a second seat to survival. I wish I could care about the whole world equally; but I know that if I do it I’m dead meat.
Sorry, guys, but Alessan is exactly right. You have to be loyal to your clan–you have to know you can rely on them to watch your ass and they have to know you got their back.
Guin, you’re Kool and the Gang, so I’m not going to say what your rolleyes made me feel, but think of this…
Your family is taken from its home with just what you can carry in a suitcase. You are forced to live in a cramped, dirty room, with other Catholic families from other towns. You are forced to work in a non-Catholic factory for no wages. You’re beaten if you are too slow, and you’re fed nothing but rotten cabbage, plu whatever yopu can beg or trade for.
One day, your parents are taken into a van. You never see them again.
Eventually the van comes for you.
Your head is shaved.
You’re deloused.
You’re handed a bar of soap and marched into a room where you’re told you’ll take a shower before you’re resettled. Then you smell the gas…
You have no right to EVER tell Jews, especially in Israel, that they have no right to look after themselves. NOBODY, not even the US, lifted a finger to help the Jews during the Holocaust. After the war, no country wanted the survivors. Israel was founded to give the remnant of European Jewry a home and to provide a refuge for Jews worldwide if the same madness happened again.
However, my point is-what does it matter WHO this is happening to? I have no problems with Israel existing-what I have a problem with is the idea that someone’s life is worth more because they are from Israel, than someone who is from Palestine.
The whole idea-I look out for ME first…well, the whole, “never again” was meant to say, this should never be allowed to happen to ANYONE. Not just Jews, but ANYONE!!!
Guin, don’t you get it? There are so few of us that we can barely look after ourselves! It’s up to big, strong, secure nations like the U.S. to look after the rest of the world. That’s your advantage - your gift - your responsiblity.
And yes, it shouldn’t happen again to anyone; it just has special resonance to us. You know how Fenris was joking before about Nazis taking over the U.S. and him shacking up with Gobear for the duration? Well, that won’t have to happen - Mossad agents will organize an underground railroad to Mexico and Canada, where El Al jets will airlift American Jews to safety; IDF submarines will land on U.S. shores every night to pick up stragglers. That’s our responsibility, and believe me, it’s big enough - about as much as we can handle.
P.S. - never imply that we are without empathy; we just never overindulge in it. Remember, we are at war, and yet we’ve never used napalm on civilian targets, never “demiliterized” areas, never carpet-bombed cities. Judge not… you know the rest. Don’t compare our war to your peace.
Alessan,
The truth is Israel is not alone in its struggle for existence. The US has always been a strong pillar of support along with a great many other nations. I can only empathise with how this clannish attitude can develop in a certain group of people what with their past experiences, but from a clearer perspective, it serves them no good. You drew an analogy to a family. If families and on a larger scale counties, and towns and cities, just stuck together blindly with an us vs. them attitude (that makes self-analysis difficult), can you imagine what a foul place society would become? De-humanized mobs. I know I am indulging in hyperbole but that’s the vibe I am getting. Good luck getting back home and staying safe. I sincerely hope the conflict is resolved and you can taste security and peace.
It’s hardly “sticking together blindly” - it’s sticking together due to a common history, language, culture, government, goals and yes, religion and blood. Hey, whatever works.
That aside, you just gave an accurate description of how the world really works - ergo, my “life sucks” comment from earlier on, and my mention of cynicism. Anybody who tries to live otherwise is toast, sooner if not later.
It’s like pacifism - a truly noble philosophy, but absolutely worthless on a national level unless the whole world is pacifist as well. For clannishness to be unnecessary, the world has to be perfect, which the world will never, ever be. In fact, I doubt it will get any better than it already is.
Thanks, BTW, for your blessing. Right now, I’m just happy that I’ll be getting away from this fucking New York City heat wave. I mean, Israel’s hot, but it’s a dry heat.
Alessan, the best of luck, to you and to your country. [political bit] I hope Israel can find a new leader, who can lead you and your neighbours to peace. [/political bit] Be safe, and let us know how you’re getting on.
Well, it’s worth more to the Israelis. I know, for example, I consider an American life worth more than say, an Afghani life. Not that there’s any more intrinsic value to it, but I was a lot more upset by the world trade center thing than I was when we accidentally bombed that Afghani wedding.
Equally, my parents life, for example, is worth more to me, than some other couple. If I read about two people in California dying in a car accident, I’m a lot less upset than if I read about my parents dying in a car acciident. It doesn’t mean that the strangers are inherantly any less important than my parents. They’re just less important to me.
Alessan, good luck with the move. Is it back to Haifa? (Haifa, where’s that? I never heard of it. )
I think a Straight person’s life is worth more than a Gay person’s
I think a White person’s life is worth more than a Black person’s
I think a European’s life is worth more than a African’s
I think a Michagander’s life is worth more than a Texan’s
I think a Christian’s life is worth more than a Jew’s
I think a my life is worth far more than yours
bio-brat – I assert that you consider your convenience more important than the lives of certain other people. (And that goes for the rest of us, too.) How do I know? Because, the money that paid for your computer and ISP could instead have been donated to a worthy cause, where it could have saved the life of an impoverished person somewhere.
It’s sounds good to say we consider every human life to have equal value, but, in practice, we cannot truly live that way.
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