The character David Thewlis played was some sort of priest, but a priest who bore arms. It is clear from the movie he was not a Templar, so what sort of order did this character belong to?
Also, I’m kind of surprised they didn’t have the Christians wear those bowl shaped haircuts which seemed to be widespread in the Middle Ages in Europe.
What group did Jeremy Irons belong to? He wore a surcoat with some a large cross and smaller crosses surrounding it.
I have NO answers to your questions! Sorry. I was just happy to see someone else watched it as well.
What’d you think of it? I was sorely disappointed. It was very loooooong and - I checked my watch - nearly the whole first hour was just talk, talk, talk. Liam Neeson, whom I was really looking forward to seeing fight, died early, and Jeremy Irons left before the big battle! Orlando did pretty well but there was no way in hell he is bulky enough to be a blacksmith…much too slim. Actually, the best one ever was the man who played Saladin.
At least the armor was cool but I don’t particularly like Ridley’s method of fighting - zoom up really close and then play with all the buttons on the camera, slow it doen, speed it up, blur it…I wanted to see some real fights.
Never saw Gangs of New York, I take it?
Nope. Any good?
Nonsense; I’ve known blacksmiths and carpenters that skinny, or moreso. A lot of wiry guys have more stamina than do the bigger guys like myself. Orlando Bloom is an athletic guy; it’s not his fault he looks like a chick.
Incidentally, that “talk, talk, talk” stuff is called dialogue. It is, I’ve heard, an essential element of drama. I’m sorry the script wasn’t able to depict a complex historical milieu without so much damn talking.
David Thewlis’ character is listed in the credits (at www.imdb.com) as simply “Hospitaler”; this would mean he was one of the Knights of the Hospital of St. John. Yet, I thought he was wearing a white surcoat with a black cross, which I believe was the dress of the Teutonic Knights. So I’m a bit confused. I’m a bit rusty on the subject of the military religious orders; I’m sure somebody here will correct me.
Jeremy Irons’ character, Tiberias, I assumed was a fictional representation of Raymond III of Tripoli, a Hospitaller. (Tiberias was a city.) They wore a black surcoat with a white cross; however, Jeremy Irons’ character was also the Marshall of Jerusalem, and as such he wore the coat of arms for the Kingdom of Jerusalem, which was a gold cross surrounded by four smaller crosses, on a white background. (You see variations of this throughout the movie, if you look for them.) In normal European heraldry, you never see gold on white, or vice versa; the arms of Jerusalem were the exception to this.
As for haircuts, there’s no generic “medieval haircut”. Fashions changed from time to time, and place to place, during the several centuries now called “the middle ages”, just as they do now. And at any given time, not everybody would be wearing his hair the same way; there are always variations based on personal taste. When it comes to military men, historically (before the uniformity of modern armies) some men have cut their hair short for convenience, and others have worn it long to make a fierce display. (I’ve also read references to 14th century French knights tying their long hair on top of their heads as extra padding in their helms; unlike in the movies, they sure as Hell weren’t going to fight bareheaded if they could help it.)
Well, rats—Baldwin beat me to it while I was hunting down links; but I’ll subject everyone to this anyway in case the aforementioned links might be useful
I haven’t seen the movie (and probably won’t, at least until it comes out on DVD), but IMDB lists his character as “Hospitaler.” If taken literally, this would make him a member of the Knights Hospitaler (of St John)—a group similar to the Templars in that they were a semi-monastic order of knights, though their mission was more the relief of pilgrims than the retaking of the Temple. As such, he would probably be a lay cleric rather than a priest. But as I said, I haven’t seen the movie.
As for the hairstyles, they varied during the Middle Ages just as they do today. The same factors that had the Founding Fathers clean-shaven, while men at the time of the Civil War usually had facial hair, applied then too.
If I read the picture gallery aright, Jeremy Irons is sporting a Jerusalem Cross—part of the arms and banner of the Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem.
This all presumes, of course, that the movie is (chortle, guffaw) accurate.
OttoDaFe – great name! I just saw the movie a second time (because my brother wanted to see it). I don’t expect a movie to be a documentary, and this certainly wasn’t, but I’d say it did a pretty good job of presenting some of the perspectives of the major players: the old guard of Outremer noblemen who had grown up there and understood the culture (which would have included the historical Balian); the European knights who were eager for glory or greedy for land; the assorted Muslims united by a charismatic leader; and Saladin himself, played very well, I thought, by Ghassan Massoud, a Syrian actor who’s always wanted to play that role.
Also, Baldwin IV is one of my favorite historical kings, and it was nice to see him portrayed on the screen.
I’m also kind of tired of the photographic gimmicks used to present hand-to-hand fighting; just as in Gladiator, we see a lot of the technique that uses a very short shutter time (or whatever the proper term is). I guess it’s supposed to communicate the feeling of chaos one might have in the midst of a battle; that’s fine, but as a movie viewer, I’d sometimes like to back up and get a better overall picture.
It’s not bad. Liam Neeson does some fighting in it.
And is dead within the first ten minutes.
The Teutonic Knights were white with black crosses, I think.
The Hospitallers were definitely black with white crosses, to be later changed to a white Maltese cross on a red background.
They’re still around today, although they’re not military anymore.
It was way too much talk…most of it unimportant.
Incidentally, I don’t understand why you have to be so goddamn snarky and it really gets me pissed. Some of us can discuss a movie and not be so damn high-and-mighty about it, you know? I’m leaving this thread, thanks to you.
Yeah, I found his character utterly fascinating, and had to go and find out about him once the movie ended. All that wealth, luxurious surroundings, and power, and he can’t enjoy any of it because he is imprisoned by Leprosy.
Very interesting character for Edward Norton to play - complex, enigmatic, and he could be anonymous (and therefore not have to do promotional tours) because he was either totally concealed, or wearing a lot of prosthetic makeup.
Incidentally, I think the different orders stem from their countries of origin - Teutonics from Germany, Templars from France, Hospitaliers from England.
I could be wrong though.
Actually the Templars and Knights of St. John ( founded from an abbey establiushed by the Italian city of Amalfi ) were both pretty international in character and I believe a majority of Masters in both orders, at least in the Crusading period, were French ( as ultimately were a majority of Crusading lineages in the Holy Land ). The Knights of St. John did have an English priory, but it was later only one of eight branches, three of which were French. In addition the Knight Templars association with France may seem particularly pronounced in part because Philip le Bel was the one who really started the process of bringing them down.
However I’d agree the Teutonic Knights were a bit more explicitly Germanic in character.
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In short: Hospitaliers wore a black or possibly red surcoat with a white Maltese cross centered. Black on white would indeed have been the Teutonic Order.