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You are the one making straw man arguments; that’s where the disconnect is coming from. Because we’re not talking about anything all that complicated.
A cop should know the following things to do his/her job within any given jurisdiction, in my opinion. Stop me if any one of these strike you as too complex for your average beat cop to grasp. Of course this list isn’t exhaustive:
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The kinds of crimes that constitute misdemeanors and felonies.
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The rules of behavior for investigating misdemeanors and felonies:
- what conditions must be in place for a suspect to be lawfully detained
- when can a suspect be made to show an ID
- what kind of searches are allowable with or without a warrant or probable cause
- what is probable cause
- what is and isn’t allowable under the law when a person refuses to cooperate
- what constitutional protections are in place that limits police powers
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Excessive use of force: what is it and guidelines for prevention
If a cop has been trained on these things, then they should be familiar enough with the 4th amendment to at least know it’s a “thing” before plunging ahead with taser and handcuffs. Just like a surgeon knows to keep scapel blades away from certain arteries, cops should never become so consumed with controlling someone that they lose sight of what their job really is about. Protecting people, in other words. Not being a bully.
Again, if this is too much to expect from a person we’re paying to patrol the streets with a gun, then that should make us even more protective of our rights. Not less.
Am I the only person not seeing any sex in these pics? Just wondering.
[Moderating]
Stop junior moderating, DrDeth
[/Moderating]
[QUOTE=you with the face]
You are the one making straw man arguments; that’s where the disconnect is coming from. Because we’re not talking about anything all that complicated.
[/QUOTE]
Where is my strawman argument again?
Yes, in your opinion you THINK this is what they SHOULD know. Again, I got all that…or is that a strawman also?
Sure. They should broadly know this. And make a judgement call on if they THINK a crime has been committed. And then, you know, lawyers and the courts take over to ensure that they are correct.
Again, broadly you are correct…they SHOULD know, broadly, all of these things. But in every conceivable permutation and situation? No. That’s a load of horseshit. Again, THAT’S WHY WE HAVE COURTS, JUDGES AND LAWYERS. A cop makes a judgement call based on their training and experience. But we don’t just go with that as the final arbiter.
Same answer. Broadly true. A journeymans understanding, broadly speaking. Obviously, they don’t all get it because, you know, we still have cases of police using excessive force. And, wonder of wonders, we still have lawyers who fight over, dispute and test whether it WAS excessive use of force. If cops knew all of this stuff and all the permutations then we (and they when they are brought up to those court thingies) wouldn’t need lawyers, they could just do it all themselves.
Well, that’s the ideal obviously. But the reality is different, as reality often is. Which, again, is why we have specialists (surgeons as opposed to GPs…as opposed to EMTs, which are IMHO what cops are compared to lawyers) to keep things in line and set precedence and such. In court. Against other lawyers. With judges. Etc etc. If cops could do it all, could know it all, could be trained to understand every permutation such that they would be on par with lawyers, well, we wouldn’t need lawyers anymore…and cops would make a hell of a lot more.
Now…where was MY strawman again? Because I’m not seeing it. Are you saying that you don’t think cops should know all of the things on your list such that, to get back to the major topic of this thread, they would just instantly know they were in the wrong to confront either of the people in the two events discussed, would know they couldn’t demand ID and couldn’t detain the people in question if they didn’t give their ID? Are you not saying that? Or is the strawman something else?
Yes, it’s too much to expect that cops can do it all, know it all, and be perfect. If they were, we wouldn’t need courts and lawyers and such. But we DO need those other things…they are the check and balance to our system. This is a feature, not a bug.
You can’t see penetration, but it doesn’t take much imagination to see how they could be fucking there. And, the pics are one thing, but obviously the people in the office building who observed them and called this in, as well as told them to stop THOUGHT they were fucking, and they were a lot closer. Unless someone has a full video I think the only thing we can say is that we can’t really say.
Since the folks who took the pics were quite some distance away, I don’t think they’d be able to say if sex was being had either. A hot makeout session can look rather provocative and lively, but that doesn’t make it sex. In all the pics I’ve seen, there are no uncovered parts visible. Maybe they were having sex and maybe not, but it’s annoying to click on all these links and not see anything tawdry and jawdropping.
And all of this might be well and good just as long as the cop’s ignorance doesn’t cause anyone to be injured, killed, or psychologically traumatized to the extent that they hate cops and train their kids and grandkids to hate them too. The courts can’t really do much to fix these consequences, can they?
Why put it all on the judicial system, when we could just as easily do a better job training cops and discipling them when they screw up, rather than cultivating a culture of “oh well, cops will be cops”. And cops that are compassionate and look to resolve conflicts using non-violent, non-confrontational means should be promoted and awarded.
Yanno, I keep reading this thread, and I keep on wondering…
Who the fuck cares if two people are fucking in a car anyway?
Seriously, jeezus. What the fuck is so awful that someone has to call the goddamn cops about someone getting some in a parking lot? This fucking society, I swear…
The childrens might see them!!! Won’t someone think of the childrens!!!
Well, I don’t think it was any children that were involved. 
But, assuming the stories are true, they were fucking in broad daylight in front of a major office building with the car door open. Probably a bit beyond the pale, no matter how you try and spin this as uptights conservative types feigning protecting the children.
What modern society do you know of that has no problem with people dropping trow and going at it like bunnies in heat? I’m pretty sure that I’ve never been to that country, so please tell me where that is. 
Wasn’t there, but someone sure thought they were screwing. And someone thought it was lewd enough (or titillating enough) to snap some pics. You rarely see people snapping pics of other folks doing yoga or just kissing after all.
I pretty much agree with everything XT has been saying. And the answer is… we SHOULD be training cops better. We should be training them as well as we can. But we don’t have infinite time and money and resources to train them in EVERYTHING, so presumably the training has to be limited and focused into the areas that are considered most important.
Is the distinction between different types of Terry stops sufficiently important? Beats me, I’m not an expert on the topic, and neither is anyone else in this thread (presumably). But XT’s point (if I may speak for him for a moment) is that there will always be areas of police training that are imperfect, not to mention individual cops who make errors when the situation is complicated, and (a) that’s why we have courts and lawyers, and (b) the more likely an area of police procedure is to result in dead people when cops screw it up, the more important it is that they be as well trained as possible in that particular area.
Well, fucking or not, what they were doing is pretty tasteless, IMO. That level of exhibitionism is really over the top.
Doesn’t change my feelings on the rest of it.
I don’t know what to say to this. There have been a lot of bad things that have happened in the US through history. Usually, when bad things happen, there is an eventual correction and we, as a society move on. We don’t always move fast, but generally we go from bad to, well, better. That doesn’t always help those who have those bad things happen to them, or their kids. I’m not sure how you fix all of that in this context without something like this happening, the public becoming aware of it, outrage following it, and change occurring hopefully down the road. You say it’s easy for them to do a better job, but I disagree…it’s not an easy job to do. You say ‘oh well, cops will be cops’, but that’s yet another strawman, if that was directed at me…and it’s even a strawman directed at society as a whole.
I don’t know how old you are, but in my lifetime I’ve seen huge changes, including what the police can and can’t do, and what they are allowed to do or not do…and what society will call them on the carpet for doing. You might think it’s bad now, but it was much, much worse when I was a kid, IMHO (the 60’s and 70’s). It got better…and it did so because cops pushed things, they were called on them, and society was outraged, things were taken to the courts, decisions were made and chance happened. We moved forward. Sure, folks were hurt, and that sucked. It sucked for a young woman and her boyfriend who probably was doing some stuff she should have saved for when they were home or in a nice motel room. It sucked for a guy just hanging out and wanting to pick up his kids and probably not wanting to be harassed. Hopefully some good will come out of the hurt. It’s, after all, why we HAVE courts and lawyers and such.
Exactly. You said it much better than I’ve been able too.
I suppose. But is it out of the question that people tens or hundreds of meters away just…not look? I dunno. Were there people actually walking past them in the street/parking lot?
I’m not understanding the point, because it sounds like you’re saying “Well, it’s a fuckup, but police have a hard job and besides there are the courts.”
My take is instead “Don’t fuck up, and if you do, learn to not do it again.” It really is not difficult to learn when you can’t stop, detain or question someone. Our civil rights are worth getting it right in the first place, and not just when you have the money and time to go to court to get an apology.
Right, and we shouldn’t wait until people are dying before we say “bad cop!” and hold them accountable for their actions.
Nobody is denying the importance of judicial checks and balances. But we should not be leaning on courts to protect us from abusive cops. After all, by the time an issue is taken to court, somebody’s rights have already been infringed upon. Taxpayers have a vested interest in not having this happen because million dollar settlements are expensive.