But of course the great ongoing debate is whether a fetus IS a child, and is terminating a non-viable one really murder…?
From all the hard-line, self-righteous noise the born-again Christian community has been making on this issue, you’d think there’d be a definitive Biblical answer to this question.
All I can find is an Old-Testament reference:
that if you punch a pregnant woman in the stomach and she consequently miscarries, you have to pay a fine.
Doen’t exactly sound like a punishment for murder.
Also, I keep looking for that part of the Sermon on the Mount that says, “Blessed are the Abortion Clinic Bombers, for theirs is—”
How does that go again?
Jer 1:5
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Nuh-no.
That only refers to that particular “thee”, i.e. the Prophet Jeremiah. The quote’s a God-ordained validation of Jer. as such.
Besides, if God knew Jeremiah “…before [he] formed thee [Jeremiah] in the belly…”, wouldn’t that rather support the “Every
Sperm Is Sacred” idea?
It’s not what I’m talking about.
Pay attention.
God only sanctified “thee” (Jeremiah) in that quote, not the whole unborn human race.
My question is,
WHERE DOES IT SPECIFICALLY SAY THAT (ALL) ABORTION IS IN FACT “KILLING”?
You’d think the Word of God would be really clear on such an important issue. I’m still looking.
Steady on Hillbilly; Masonite was quoting one of the passages that are used to support the idea that life as a human being begins at conception; that is relevant to this debate even though it doesn’t directly answer your question.
I’m not an authority tracer, but the effects of certain plants (of which extracts are still used in medicine today to stimulate labour) have been known for a very long time, so perhaps.
Heh. Insider stock info trading?..not “specifically” banned in the bible either.
Nuclear arms proliferation? nada
Hacking into someones computer? nope
Selling crack to grade school kids? Nothing in my RSV
Of course I suppose that it would be kinda ironic to point out that the constitution says squat about a “specific” right to abortion either… :rolleyes"
Umm same place it says for Earth First to destroy public property and maim people in the name of environmentalism…your point would be what, that there are extermists in a political movement…shocking I tell you, shocking!!
I see that passage as stating that, in the case of Jerimiah, God had a special role for him even before conception. “Before I formed thee in the belly” indicates a time prior to conception. Maybe this is what Monty means when he refers to Jerimiah’s spirit.
Still I think it would be fair to say that if abortion techniques were unknown in biblical times, then it wouldn’t be expected for the Bible to proscribe something unknown and undoable.
Rape was not specifically condemned in the Bible either, and yet it is recognized as a major no-no due to spiritual principles.
A specific act may not be condemned, but that doesn’t mean that the Bible condones it – not if the Bible contains principles that render that act wrong.
But you said it right there in the beginning–“Thou shalt not kill.” It follows that IF the unborn child is a living human person, then it falls under the murder no-no. This is contingent on whether the fetus has an immortal soul. The counter-argument is, “How do we know when the soul is infused? Could be after birth.” The response is that you’re taking a colossal risk if there IS an immortal soul there…kinda like shooting a gun into a room, not knowing if anyone was in there, and then saying “I didn’t know anyone was in there when I fired.”
And, as the earlier posts mention, abortion wasn’t possible in Biblical times (to my knowledge), although various forms of feticide were; i.e., stabbing a pregnany woman in the belly.
Oh, best Biblical evidence I can think of: when pregnant Mary visits her cousin Elizabeth, who’s pregnant with John the Baptist. (This is in the early Luke chapters.) The unborn John “leaps for joy” at the presence of Christ. That’s a pretty human reaction to me.
Mind you, I’m not wild about this set of laws. In the first, since the girl didn’t cry for help, it’s assumed she was complicit, making it adultery, not rape (also a capital crime–for both parties). I don’t know if the law was in practice capable of grasping things like “They were in a town, but he had a knife to her throat and said he would kill her if she made a sound”. Also, only rape of a betrothed woman (almost the same as married in Old Testament law) was punishable by death (I assume the same would apply to forcible rape of another man’s full-fledged wife as well). The penalty for rape of an unbetrothed woman was an indissoluble shotgun marriage, which I can’t say is an idea I would endorse. Still, the subject of rape is certainly covered in Biblical law.
The Greeks and Romans knew of and practiced abortion (by herbal abortifacients, I believe). It is interesting that the Mosaic law (which covers topics from menstruation to leprosy to sanitation procedures in military encampments) never explicitly says “if a pregnant woman takes any plant which causes her to miscarry, the penalty shall be ____”.
I started googling this subject, then was hit by a wave of laziness. Be that as it may, abortion has been practiced since Biblical times. “. The most common ancient methods of abortion included laxatives, emetics and ergot alkaloids. The most common modern-day analogues are castor oil (laxative), Ipecac (emetic) and methergine (ergot alkaloid). Mortality and morbidity associated with ancient abortion was significant…”
www.religioustolerance.org has a nice set of pages on abortion. The biblical stance on abortion, in addition to the views of early Christians and Jews, can be linked to from here. Here’s one summary: “Neither the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) nor the Christian Scriptures address abortion directly. However, writings in the early Christian movement by the end of the 1st century or the beginning of the 2nd century CE do condemn abortion.” But see Exodus 21:22 and Luke 1:41. Also, note the flip-flopping on the issue over subsequent centuries.
Big deal; it doesn’t “specifically” ban a lot of things.
Most of the crimes and misdeeds you’ve cited above are already illegal, and they have no opposition groups claiming to be Backed By God.
Not the case with abortion.
My point is simply this: if you’re going to wave the Bible around as support for your position, you’d better be able to show where it clearly does give that support.
Btw re my “Blessed are the Abortion Clinic Bombers…” thing:
Hmm… i KNEW I should have simply said “protesters” instead of “bombers”…lesson learned.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by MEBuckner *
**
…It is interesting that the Mosaic law (which covers topics from menstruation to leprosy to sanitation procedures in military encampments) never explicitly says “if a pregnant woman takes any plant which causes her to miscarry, the penalty shall be ____”. **[/QUOTE
Yes. That is EXACTLY my point!
IT DOESN’T.
Wow, really thorough treatment of the rape question
from you, too.
(And I totally agree)
All-you-guys,(and I use that in the non-gender-specific mode) this has been well and truly educational for me.
I’m not an old hand at this yet.
I never just up and started my own thread before. This was fun. Most boards and forums, you don’t get such articulate arguments.
US citizens’ rights do not come from the Constitution. Various articles plus several amendments guarantee certain rights, but even if they are not specifically mentioned, other rights are guaranteed by the 9th amendment.
The constitution outlines the powers that we, as citizens grant to the government in the interest of attaining the aims specified in the preamble. All rights and all other powers belong to we the people either individually or collectively.
I’m tired of hearing about “constitutional rights” as if those are all there are.
