Anyone knowing my track record (I usually side with the mods) prepare to be surprised; I actually agree that the suspension is overboard. By the usual Great Debates threads I’ve read his (?) posts weren’t that far out of line or beyond the norm. Had that been IMHO or somewhere maybe but not GD. We can argue semantics and if the warnings were correct or not (I’m split 50/50 - one yes and one no) but the time out being based on those two instances? That one I’m not buying.
I disagree, in cases where the poster who does this is a non-American for whom English is a second language. All Americans know our history with the word, “nigger”; many foreigners may not. It is presumptuous to expect a Frenchman to know every offensive connotation of our slang.
Kobal2 is misleading because he’s so fluent in English. But he’s not a Yank and I don’t think French has an equivalent to “nigger.” Therefore, if he’s calling out perceived racism and attributes an “anti-black slur” to another poster, it hardly seems fair to conclude he knew exactly what he was saying. He knew he used a slur, he may not have known he used THE SLUR.
But whatever. Maybe no one likes my argument and everyone agrees the warning’s justified. I’ve gotten nonsense warnings, too.
But suspending him for a month over it is outrageous. We all know he wasn’t suspended for saying, “I’m a jackass? YOU’RE a jackass.” He was suspended for “nigger”. And the way he used it constituted an insulting false attribution, at most, if not a perfectly legitimate paraphrase of another poster’s argument. But it was not hate speech.
Kobal2 should be reinstated immediately. If he needs chastisement, send him a strongly worded private message about the n-word.
I agree, and yes, there’s no excuse for the “n” post.
Other posters- Please stop trying to justify it. You can’t.
But I think mercy is in order here. He’s been a decent poster up until that.
So, I do ask that he be given mercy. I don’t excuse that horrible post.
Even if….Even if…that post should have drawn a warning…and again it really shouldn’t…There is no precedent for two warnings leading to a suspension.
The relaxed policing policies being referenced are the racially-targetted stop-and-frisk ones. I wouldn’t go as far as a “nigger”-filled rant, but I was certainly all :dubious: and :smack: when I read that post.
In case it isn’t clear, I don’t think a warning for that post was out of line. If I were a mod I’d just have noted it, but I can see why some would.
But a suspension because of it is bullshit.
Warnable? Eh, ok. But I perceive it as a justifiable (if vulgar) attack on a conveniently vague and unsubstantiated position that smacked of dog-whistling.
Also, I am unaware of evidence that Kobal2 is a problem poster. Does he receive a lot of mod notes?
For those claiming the second warning was inappropriate, have you noted Kobal2’s response?
I agree that my post was provocative, deliberately so. Probably over the top, yes. I accept the warning.
Anyone still think that a deliberately provocative post doesn’t merit a warning?
I agree, though, he should not have been suspended for it.
I look forward to everybody who posts a deliberately provocative post getting a warning. There are lots of them, so I shouldn’t have to wait long.
Nah, seriously though, what did Korbal really do to get a suspension? He sent somebody dick pics didn’t he? Because there must be something more to this.
If you don’t know the use-mention distinction, you can’t moderate an intelligent message board. He did not actually call anyone a nigger. And, outside that use, the word is allowed to be used here. Accusing someone of being racist has never been a warnable offense.
**
Jonathan Chance** doesn’t even try to assert that this is what happened. He calls it “putting words in someone’s mouth” and “inappropriate,” neither of which are warnable offenses. Only here does he admit it’s about a specific word.
He even stated in this thread that he would have suspended him based on this post alone. Seeing as Ed himself has said that can’t happen, that you always get a warning first, that is wrong.
While never explicitly said, even two warnings for the same thing aren’t enough for a suspension. A suspension is for people who have problematic behavior so bad that Warnings are clearly not working. It’s to give them one last chance before banning them for good.
It’s not a weapon to use because you think a post is particularly bad. Especially when that post is only bad because you lack the knowledge of the use/mention distinction.
Why in the world would his opinion change a thing? People accept Warnings they don’t agree with all the time, and, even if he did think it was a Warnable offense, that doesn’t make it fact.
If I were a soccer player, and I mistakenly thought that the ball hitting my hand while it was at my side counted as a hand ball, and thus accepted a penalty for it, it wouldn’t change the rules. It would still not be a hand ball.
The facts exists separately from what your opinion of them are. What is and is not a Warnable offense is not up to the person being Warned. Being deliberately provocative has never been a Warnable offense. If it were, GD would have to be shut down.
And that’s all that Kobal2 admitted to. Not any Warnable offense.
Personally I’m not going to quibble much about those warnings. Could have been “cool-offs,” but close enough for judgement calls I suppose. However…
I’m going to tenth this. An obvious troll or some such is one thing, but this seems a little too quick on the trigger finger for an otherwise decent poster.
You are on record as thinking you should not be able to use the word “stupid.” You do not very well understand when words are and aren’t offensive. It is not surprising that you don’t know about the use/mention distinction. Because it is indeed, 100% valid.
Kobal2’s post cannot be interpreted as a way to denigrate black people. Not even accidentally. His post is clearly calling out racist statements. It takes willful twisting to interpret it as racist, and racism is the reason why you can’t use the word “nigger.”
The mods have made it very, very clear that they do not moderate based on whether something might offend someone. We had the issue where someone was allowed to argue about the gay agenda in a thread asking parenting advice.
What is moderated here is hate speech and personal attacks. Kobal2 did neither. He did not deserve a Warning, let along a suspension, from someone actually arguing that a single post should earn a suspension, which the owner of this message board has explicitly said is wrong.
And, no, I won’t stop mentioning that. Everyone else is right that we usually don’t get suspensions for two Warnings, unless they happen back to back. But this is stronger: Jonathan Chance argues in this very thread that a single post should have been enough for a suspension. And there’s a clear line against that. You don’t get to argue moderator discretion there.
I am not French, but as his fellow non-American I would like to add that attitudes towards slurs in general vary significantly between cultures.
For example in Germany, where I am from, the use-mention distinction is very significant when dealing with slurs. Of course there are words which are unacceptable to use when referring to people, but there is no such thing as an unprintable slur. Mentioning words is generally not a problem. Basically, in Germany in any context where it is acceptable to write “the n-word” it is acceptable to write “nigger”, too.
The idea that this distinction is almost irrelevant in America and that in polite company the word can’t be uttered regardless of context as if it was Voldemort’s name can be very alien.
Of course this is an American board and you have to comply with American expectations, but it can be easy to slip up and act in accordance with your own norms.
Then you might as well change the motto of the SD from “Fighting Ignorance” to “Prouldy Provincial”.
Well, tell you what.
I’m raising the issue again in the mod loop. We’ll have another discussion about it and get back to you.
Huh. Okay, I won’t pile on, but await events.
Except that he didn’t “slip up.” By his own admission, his post was “provocative, deliberately so.”
While we’re waiting, and with the acknowledgement that this is not a democracy, I shall add my two cents to the piggy bank and agree that while the warnings were justified the suspension appears to be excessive based on the evidence given.
Also, I like pie.
That is all.
Of course it was deliberately confrontational. That does not mean that it was deliberately violating any rule or intended to offend anyone but the addressee.
FWIW I agree with the above entirely. I also am fond of pie.
Regards,
Shodan