Koreans snipping their frenulums?

Calling Astroboy14!

I read a letter in the newspaper this week that pinged my BS detector (the third-hand aspect of a statement about Korea being made from Holland and printed in a Japanese paper, not to mention the writer having a fair-sized chip on his shoulder regarding English), and I’d just like to find out if there’s actually anything to it.

So, is this a common procedure in Korea (or anywhere else, for that matter), something that a few parents do but most think is nuts, or something completely unheard of?

Also, could cutting the frenulum actually provide some advantage? Any disadvantages?

[sup]*[/sup]“English is forced, not chosen”, Dafydd Ap Fergus, Rotterdam, Netherlands, printed in The Japan Times, 15 May 2002, p.20

Aren’t we all pretty much the same as far as our “innerds” are concerned?

Creating a particular sound is learned and barring birth defects or other deformities is possible by anyone.

Well, I’ve never heard of anyone doing this here… I’m guessing it’s BS of the purest sort.

As for giving an advantage in saying Rs and Ls, I’m not a doctor, but I can’t see how it would give any advantage. My frenulum is perfectly intact, and I’m pretty good with Rs and Ls!:wink:

I call BS also. How does this theory account for the millions of children of Asian emigrants who grew up in other cultures with another language as their first. I have met many Asians who are second, or third generation Americans, and they sound just like anyone else; no problems with L’s or R’s.

i have read this about south koreans, and it was unsubstantiated. but the article also mentioned that the procedure is useless (as in, doesn’t really do jack shit).

jb

I saw on a highly credible source (ok, it was a tv show, sorry) that we all have the same basic language skills as infants. If you learn sounds, words, etc. at this age, your brain learns them in a certain way, but only at this age. Once you get out of the toddler stage this ability disappears completely, and from then on out if you try to learn new sounds and new languages it is processed by a completely different part of your brain. Later, when you try to learn sounds that you did not learn as a child, your brain has a much more difficult time learning them, and this is why asians have a hard time with the letter L and americans have a hard time with the french R. It has nothing to do with tongue structures. Intentionally damaging part of your tongue may or may not make your speech worse, but there’s no way it’s going to make it better.

I know someone who had bad tonsils as a child, and couldn’t hear properly during that important early age of speech development. Despite the fact that the tonsils came out at a very young age and he could hear just fine after that, he still had to go to years of speech therapy and his speech still suffers from it.

I can’t say whether or not someone in Korea actually believes it to be true, but I would think that if it were a common practice I would have at least heard of it sometime before now.

I smell total BS :stuck_out_tongue: I grew up in Korea and I speak English with a perfect accent. I can’t understand for the life of me how snipping the thing under the tongue could allow a person to pronounce R’s and L’s better than someone who didn’t go under the knife. If anything, I’d think it would impede their speech in the long run. ::shrug::

Well I have a pair of scissors, and a Korean fiancee who has trouble with Ls and Rs…

I smell an experiment coming!:smiley:

If no one hears from me for in a few days, could you send Mr.O or hersiarch over to check on me? Astrogirl could get violent…

Thanks for the responses, everyone.

I didn’t think cutting the frenulum would improve one’s speaking ability (just the opposite, at least in the short term), but that didn’t necessarily mean some parents wouldn’t believe that it would work. Even so, it sounded pretty fishy.

Anyway, thanks for confirming my suspicions.

I had my daughter in Japan. Apparently, it is quite common for really earthy-crunchy midwives to recommend snipping the frenelum whenever the baby is having trouble latching on to the breast. Our midwife recommended we go and have it done, but not becasue of later articulation reasons.

I tend to agree that it’s BS to think that cutting the frenulum would help, but I’m satisfied that it happens, at least sometimes. I have a co-worker (MK, in case Astroboy is curious) who is American, married to a Korean woman, and has two children. Today I asked him if he knew of this practice, and he rolled his eyes and said that his wife had had the procedure done on their daughter when she was little. The daughter speaks perfect English, but so do all the Koreans I know who grew up in English-speaking countries with their tongues intact. (MK said the operation was quick and easy, didn’t bleed much and healed quickly, FWIW.)

The odd thing to me is that the Korean sound “¤©” (I don’t know if that symbol will come out right on other computers) is sort of between the English L and R, but seems to require more tongue dexterity than either of those English sounds. The tongue has to curl back farther in the mouth, and the bottom of the tip of the tongue has to touch the roof of the mouth. Anyone who can do that could easily make the English sounds, I think.

If it still happens, it just illustrates the lengths that Korean parents will go to in order to help their children learn English. Unfortunately, many of them undermine those efforts by filling the kids’ heads with so much negative information about the west in general and the US in particular. Many kids here grow up associating good English skills with a loss of Korean identity or betrayal of Korean values, so they don’t speak the language nearly as well as they could. The parents might as well leave the tongues alone and just snip out the kids’ brains. I hope that both those groups–the tongue-snippers and the brain-washers–are in the minority. I’m pretty sure the tongue-snippers are; I don’t feel so confident about the other group.

And Astroboy: leave that woman alone! I think her English is kind of cute.

Barring actual defects or injuries, pretty much all human mouths can produce the same range of speech sounds. (There are some variations, such as the presence or absence of the alveolar ridge.)

However, not all speech sounds are meaningfully used in every language, and, when learning our first language (as children, usually), we learn to distinguish the speech sounds that are actually significant in that language. Ones that aren’t used tend to get classified as “sounding like” the closest one that is… which can be a problem when you’re later learning a foreign language that does make a distinction.

In English, and a wide range of other Indo-European languages (possibly all of them, but I’m not absolutely sure), there is a distinction drawn between the sounds we know (and perhaps love) as “l” and “r” - we hear, for example, the words “lake” and “rake” as beginning with different sounds, and so we know they’re different words (which makes gardening so much simpler). However, a number of non-Indo-European languages don’t make this distinction - and, as it happens, the difference in actual sound between “l” and “r” is really very slight; we English speakers notice it because we’ve been trained to, practically since birth, but someone who hasn’t is going to have trouble.

So, it’s got nothing to do with Westerners having more flexible tongues, it’s just that English-speakers make a distinction between speech sounds that Korean-speakers don’t. (And, I might add, vice versa, but you don’t see Westerners queuing up for surgery to speak better Korean). I suspect that cutting the frenulum would actually do more harm than good - it’d make your tongue more floppy, hence harder to control, at the front. Of course, if this is done to very young children, they’d probably adapt to it and learn to speak without significant problems - but cutting the frenulum can’t possibly do any good, not to anyone with a normally-shaped tongue, anyway.

(Previews) MrO, what you’re describing sounds like what we phonetics types call a retroflex consonant - with the tip of the tongue bent back. Any English speaker can make that noise, but, because it isn’t part of the “English” set of speech sounds, they’ll tend to perceive it as “just a sort of ‘r’ sound”, and will need a lot of practice and training to use it correctly if they learn Korean. I suppose you could slice out a chunk of the upper surface of the tongue, and stitch it up, so that the tip was permanently bent backwards, but I really wouldn’t recommend that…

Am I the only one who saw frenulum in the title and thought this thread was about something totally different?

Hmmm. I guess I’ll just muddle along with my sloppy Korean pronunciation, thanks.:wink:

No !

Ouch !

Nope - I did too. I had that done myself, but it didn’t help the way I spoke at all…!!

:smiley:

Incidentally, some children are born with a short frenulum under the tongue - it’s popularly known as being “tongue-tied”. In extreme cases the child will actually have a “pucker” in the tongue, and have a hard time nursing. Sometimes it isn’t that bad, but can cause a speech impediment later in life, not to mention problems with odd things like licking an ice cream cone. The cure is - well, to snip the frenulum, just a little bit, so it will lengthen slightly as it heals. However, the idea that this problem is more widespread among one particular group is unsupported; as has already been mentioned, most adults who have trouble with /r/ and /l/ do so because they didn’t learn the distinction as children.

In Norway it used to be common for maternity ward doctors to snip any frenulum they were the least bit suspicious about, on the theory that it was quick and painless now but would be more difficult later on. Fortunately this practice has died out. I’ve heard of one infant who had her frenulum snipped shortly after birth in recent years, and she had the “pucker” and nursing problems. The others I know of had it done at a later age, when speech therapy failed to help with rrrrrolling the rrrrrrs.

Trivia note: you were born with two other frenulums in your mouth. They connected your top and bottom lips to your gums. Are they there now? Most people lose at least one to a childhood accident, without even noticing.

All frenulums present and correct, SAH!!

(And, once again, everyone in the office is giving me funny looks…)

No. And I could only imagine by the title what the supposed benefit was.

I was rather surprised it took that many posts for someone to bring this up.

I don’t consider myself squeamish, mention castration to most blokes and they’ll cross their legs, me, I can just smile and make Bobbit jokes. Blood, guts, TV surgery, endoscopies, I just don’t care, just bits really.

BUT, those frenula (I have all three* - below tongue, above top front teeth, and, below bottom front teeth) are sacred, the very thought of having them “snipped” (ooh! it sounds soooo evil) makes me clench my teeth and curl my toes.

I find that strange

*refusing to go anywhere but the mouth…