Are you kidding? Israel never claimed otherwise. Rabin, Peres and most of the rest of the peace camp never believed that they were giving the Palestinians their land “back” - instead, the way they saw it was that they were giving Israeli land to the Palestinians for the sake of peace, security and human rights. They were always very clear-eyed about it… and yet, they still got things done. Because really, what difference does it make? Ideally, we’ll believe that we’re giving them *our *land, they’ll believe that they’re getting *their *land back, and in the end, God willing, both sides will be happy.
(1) How’s that workin’ out for ya? and (2) What do the Palestinians think of that, or does it matter to you?
Maybe it doesn’t; Israel and the US both have now decided it’s all one country, with an Arab majority. The issue now is apartheid, and the US can no longer even temper it.
(1) Right now, not so great. Hopefully we’ll vote someone in next election who will be willing to take some risks, make some sacrifices.
(2) There’s nothing Israel can do to make the Palestinians think worse of it than they already do. Hopefully, they’ll be able to put aside their feelings and do the smart thing - accept land for peace, even if it isn’t all the land they want.
Premise unsupported by facts in evidence.
Stranger
Elvis:
Saves plenty of time. Do you realize how much time Bill Clinton wasted cajoling a peace plan before he realized Arafat would never give an inch on the important issues? Maybe Trump’s not so dumb after all.
Reads smart enough to me.
The House of Saud has to be concerned with extremists - not just the Shiites in the East but the Sunni extremists elsewhere (Al Qaeda, etc). By doing this, they’re energizing the fanatics in their realm. It also gives the Iranians (Hezbollah) an opportunity to come to the aid of the Palestinians and gain wider influence.
I agree that US-Turkey relations are already badly damaged, but it’s still wise to salvage what we can, NATO ally or not. This will only intensify the growing distrust between the two countries.
You seem to implicitly be saying that the Palestinians have been much more willing to compromise than the Israelis.
If so, that’s an extremely questionable position to take either based on either recent events or history.
From the Israeli POV they were repeatedly ready to compromise in the 30s, 40, and 60s and had the Palestinians ever once accepted the Israeli position at that time, they’d actually have a much, much larger viable Palestinian state than they’ll ever get now.
I’m sure you’re familiar with Abba Eban’s famous quip about how “The Palestinians have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity.”
Arafat is no longer the Palestinians leader and despite his obsessive insistence that the PLO was “the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people” it never was either.
Ibn Warraq:
- And Clinton is no longer president of the United States nor actively engaged in getting Middle Eastern leaders to talk to one another. But what I wrote was historically correct.
- Abbas is no different, policy-wise, from Arafat in any meaningful way. He was Arafat’s deputy when the former was alive, and does what he would have done if he’d still been alive, no more, no less.
- Maybe not, but none with more willingness to negotiate peace with Israel has ever come forward to declare such intention. That being the case, what I said about not wasting time with Arafat (or his successor) goes ever more so for any other known entity that purports to speak on behalf of the collective body of Palestinian Arabs.
Is there a reason you say “Palestinian Arabs” instead of “Palestinians”?
S.A. has so much going on right now, they wouldn’t let this pretty much symbolic gesture/Trump-troll threaten U.S. support and their mutually beneficial relationship with Israel.
Erdogan will probably play it up for the crowd and maybe even cite it for some supposed reaction, but it will be what would have happened anyway. The fundamental issues (in opposite directions) for S.A. and Turkey are just too immense for this Trump-troll to really even register. It could only be used as an excuse.
You might have a point re: Turkey.
With regard to Saudi Arabia, yes, there is indeed a lot going on at the moment, with one of those things being the fact that Saudis are having to get used to living with an increasingly lower standard of living. Things like a study abroad program and other government assistance were particularly aimed at young Saudi men in no small part because of the aftermath of Al Qaeda and September 11th. The government recognized that it needed to keep young Saudi men busy, either with school or employment. The collapse of the oil economy put a lot of pressure on them economically, and it increases the risk of Sunni-backed radicalism and threats to the regime. I fully agree that this one move alone is probably not going to destroy the regime or US-Saudi relations, but on top of the Muslim ban, on top of the various comments and tweets, it’s another sign that the United States is waging a global culture war against Islam, which is inevitably going to put Muslim regimes in a defensive and less cooperative posture. It leaves us a lot less influential in the region, and it’s a power vacuum that can be filled by Russia and Iran.
Ibn Warraq:
Not particularly. It just sounded better in the sentence following “collective body of”.
Is anyone who was in a position of authority then still in it? Tell us why that matters today or in the future, any more than the political situation under the Ottomans or the Romans does.
When do Israel and its jingoists have to stop simply blaming the other guys for everything?
“Fuck anyone who ain’t us” has never been a successful long-term strategy for anyone, speaking of what appears to be “the Israeli POV”.
At last a President with the courage to say the Emperor has no clothes. The farce of pretending that Israel’s capital is not Jerusalem had to stop. All countries have the right to declare where their capital should be, Israel is no exception. Besides the embassy won’t be built in East Jerusalem so I don’t see why the Arabs should be pissed other than that they’re always pissed. To say this is bad for the peace process is a sick joke. What peace process?
Actually, the quote is often misquoted:
Not going to pretend I knew this. I just happened to have learned of the correct version when I looked it up.
Why should we believe this statement wasn’t written for him by a team of lawyers, skirting, as it does, any ancknowledgement legal and ethical issues that Kushner was not thoughtful enough to avoid in the first place?
Stranger
Well, compared to Trump and his actual progeny…that’s still clearly a solid step up.
I would tend to doubt that it wasn’t written by Kushner, given that it is written in the first person and does have some hints of annoyance/exasperation/etc., none of which seem likely to be components of a document written by a lawyer.
I would certainly expect that it was edited by his lawyers, and I would sense that it was probably largely based on discussions with them.
And that does seem like the smart way to do it.
This isn’t to say that he’s a genius to compete with all geniuses, and it implies nothing about his personal morality, but I do think it’s reasonable to say that out of everyone in the White House, Kushner seems like the only one who isn’t a step removed from drooling uncontrollably.
I assume you feel just as strongly about the ongoing charade whereby the United States pretends Taiwan isn’t a country.