Lack of Freewill doesn't mean lack of choice

I don’t think anyone would dispute that the situation, your preferences, and your memories influence your decisions. But you’re saying that all of my decisions are 100% determined by these factors. And that’s what many of us have trouble accepting.

When I have a decision to make, it certainly feels like I have a legitimate choice. Things like my preferences and the parameters of the situation will influence my decision, and will place limitations on what I can choose to do, but I still have options. I can choose to submit this reply, or not. I can choose which words to use. I can choose to insert a poop emoji. :poop:

It certainly feels to me as if, in the moment, I have the option to do or not do these things. My memories and preferences and the situation leave room for multiple options.

Correct, because what other factors are there?

I think this is the critical disagreement: you’re still seeing the interaction of your memories and your environment as an input to your decision-making process. Whereas my position is that that is the process.

Imagine I offer you coffee or tea. And the thought runs through your mind “Well, I generally prefer coffee, but it’s been a while since I’ve had a tea, and it may be getting a bit late to have a stimulant…”. Well, those thoughts are the interaction of your memories (both episodic and knowledge-based) and your personal preferences.
There’s nothing outside of that…why would you want anything outside of your preferences and understanding to be involved?

Now, when you make decisions it might feel like they came from a ghostly voice in your mind (or at least as something non-physical…most of your thoughts are not going to be “voiced”). They might feel like they came from nowhere.
But we understand enough neuroscience to say that, no, they’re as physical as everything else. Even if we don’t understand in detail how thoughts arise, we can say that, for example, much of our ability to plan and make big decisions happens in the frontal lobe, and damage here can take away much of our ability to do those things.

But then the “decision making process” is just a (very, very) complicated game of pachinko that proceeds from initial state to final following predetermined rules and without outside interference. That’s nothing like the common definition of “choice” at least as I understand it (and subjectively experience it). So, either you’re defining “choice” so broadly that you’ve now included pachinko balls as “choosing” their path down the board or you’re drawing some arbitrary line between pachinko balls and humans to make your definition more palatable.

You’re right though, I think, that the issue runs even deeper than materialism. Let’s say that instead of being an angel deciding between bowling and golf, you’re actually the character of an angel in an anecdote posted on an internet message board. You go through the decision making process as described and arrive at the result of “bowling”. Can you reasonably be said to have made a “choice” when your every movement and thought was prescribed by an author?

I suspect that you may be correct that the “real” world does not admit the concepts of choice (in the “could have done otherwise” sense) or free will. Or at the very least that the existence of such things is formally unprovable. But the problem is that my only access to that “real” world is through my subjective experience of it and my subjective experience is completely dependent on my sense that I make choices according to my free will. This leads to a contradiction. In any case, if it is true that I lack free will then that fact is completely irrelevant to me. I will bounce from action to action, thought to thought as the pachinko ball bounces from pin to pin. My belief in my free will and consequent behavior might change or it might not but the concept of what I “should” do is incoherent.

No, “choice” like most words does not imply any philosophical claims.
If I say my dog chooses not to go out when it rains, it may be that my dog is hard-wired to never decide to go out, however my statement does not make such a claim either way.

I said what the line was: that humans are thinking and making a judgement. Yes those judgements might be reducible to billions of pachinko balls. That doesn’t make them illusory though. You may as well say that a salsa competition is really pachinko balls: a reductive description is often misleading and/or useless.

Before we do an “instead of” how about actually engaging with the hypothetical, because I think it leads pretty solidly to my conclusion. If not, where did I go wrong?

OK, that’s a good step. So the real world does not admit “free will”.

Now consider: does any reality admit “free will”?

Invent any universe you like. It could feature magic, souls, gods, it could be a cartoon world of frolic and fancy.
How do entities make decisions in that world? How do they decide whether to play “pixie-golf” or “fairy-bowling”? If it’s not based on their character, memories and situation, what else comes into play?

I think you’ll find it impossible to conceive of a different way for decisions to happen than they do in our universe, with human brains. And hopefully you’ll realize that that’s because it is not a problem of our universe at all, but a problem with the concept of “free will” which doesn’t meaningfully define anything at all.

To the extent that humans are “thinking and making a judgement”, so are falling pachinko balls (if far more simply). I’m trying to understand how you are using the word “choice”. Does the pachinko ball choose it’s path? Does the dog that’s hardwired not to leave the house (a stuffed dog, perhaps?) choose not to go out in the rain? I’m not trying to be reductive, I just can’t tell what you’re trying to say. If the outcome of a “salsa competition” is decided by a falling pachinko ball, can it meaningfully be called a “salsa competition”?

Your hypothetical is fine. But it’s just a restatement of the thesis that “free will” is incoherent. The problem is that if you are correct, then your argument is meaningless because all things are meaningless. You do mine next.

Actually, to the contrary, I find it impossible not to conceive of a way for decisions to happen. I make choices. I have the subjective experience of choosing. I have the subjective experience that these decisions are not inevitable or random but come from an ineffable source called “myself”. If that’s not the case, then there’s really no point to discussing further. In fact, there’s no “point” or “meaning” to anything at all. We may continue this conversation or we may not, but we’re simply puppets on a string or characters in a story, unable to choose anything for ourselves.

Right, so what I’m asking is: could it be that we can’t perceive the difference between Free Will and not(Free Will) because they are equivalent for all finite cases and we can only imagine finite cases?

Let’s say you were to give me a sack full of n identical, unmarked balls and asked me to put them in order. Assume I can have whatever tools I need and as much time as I like. I can guarantee that I could accomplish this in at least O(n) time by pulling the balls out one by one and writing a number on each one in Sharpie. If I got fancy, I bet I could do it in O(log n) time or better. And that would be fine for any finite n, no matter how large. But if n was countably infinite, things start to get challenging. I can imagine it, but I’m no longer certain I could do it. And if n was uncountable, I have no idea.

Depending on what you mean, you might be begging the question. If, by “How do entities make decisions?” you mean “What determines their decisions?” the free-will answer is that their decisions aren’t determined. If “you’ll find it impossible to conceive of a different way for decisions to happen” means “…a different mechanism for decisions to happen,” the free-will answer is that decisions aren’t mechanical.

If you insist on a mechanism by which free will operates, it’s no wonder you find the concept incoherent.

No. Brains make decisions.
So, if you like, you can say that an aggregation of billions of pachinko balls, suitably connected up, can make decisions. But no, not one pachinko ball.

Ships are made of nuts and bolts, nuts and bolts aren’t made of ships.

That’s not a response yet because you haven’t given any reason why all things are meaningless if I point out that the “free will” concept is silly. You’ve just asserted it.

I agree with all of these things, but I didn’t ask for a way to conceive of a way for decisions to happen.
I asked what other than personal character, memories and situation could possibly be involved in a decision? I’m going to assume you can’t think of anything because no-one ever has.

And the way that these elements combine to make a decision doesn’t even matter in this context because all 3 are outside of my control. I’m born into a universe that wasn’t of my making, I “just have” characteristics like being heterosexual, enjoying playing strategy games like chess, being empathetic etc etc.
And my memories are themselves set as the product of my character and situations.

None of this bothers me, because that’s what it is to be human. I have human characteristics and I only know what I know and from all this I must make decisions.

The only problem comes with bronze age religions that require an omnimax god to somehow not be culpable for anything that happens. That makes zero sense, and is one of the key impetus for “spooky” free will.

Well firstly, thank you for this phrasing.

Because, yes, a decision is a determination. “Free will” is indeed essentially the requirement of a non-determined determination. It’s inherently nonsense, and the problem with it is nothing to do with our universe.

However, my point was not begging the question, because I didn’t ask what determined their decisions, I asked how they make decisions. So, for example, “Their actions are completely random” is a valid response.
…except that, as we know, proponents of the “free will” concept are generally not comfortable with random actions counting as free will.

Why do you suppose that is?
Why do you suppose people don’t think of quantum randomness as being free will? It’s because what we mean by choice is indeed a determination and randomness is not a determination.
If you disagree, please educate me: what’s the problem with randomness being exemplar of free will?

Again, that’s just one of the possible interpretations of indeterminacy—that the universe goes and flips a coin, so to speak, determining the outcome of every ‘undetermined’ situation for you. But that’s not necessarily how things work—the chess player has a certain chance of making a move, but whatever move they make is due to their choosing. Now, you might say that this choosing is itself just a process that’s either deterministic or involves an indeterministic element, but that just pushes back the question one step. The point remains: chance could just as well mean openness to different possible continuations as it could mean a random draw. The laws of physics don’t say; all we do know is that at certain junctures, the current state of the world plus the laws of physics don’t uniquely specify the next move, so to speak. You propose that at such point, some black-box mechanism flips a coin or rolls a die, but that’s a metaphysical hypothesis on your part.

The will, of course. Now, you might say: but then, the will itself is either determined, or set by chance. But again, that just pushes the question back one step. Somebody intent on defending free will won’t disagree on that—the disagreement is where things bottom out, so to speak. You say events occur either causally, or by appeal to whatever it is that determines random outcomes; the defender of free will holds that, at least sometimes, they occur due to being willed. Each of these is a black box—neither stands on more solid footing.

In fact, it’s easy to prove that a universe that has the resources of producing (genuinely) random outcomes has the resources of producing freely willed outcomes: both depend on the same infinitary powers. Consider Thomson’s lamp: it’s switched on after a second, off after half a second, on again after a quarter, and so on. What is its state after two seconds? Clearly, it can’t be on: for every time that it has been switched on, it also has been switched off. And for the same reason, it can’t be off! But it must be in either of these states (those being the only states available to it). So whatever state it is in can’t be a function of its history.

Randomness works the same way. An algorithmically random bit is formally independent (from a certain axiom system, say)—it’s an undecidable proposition. In fact, it’s equal to solving a particular instance of the halting problem—something that’s impossible for a computer, in general. But a general procedure to solve the halting problem is the following: you simulate the first step of the process in one second, the second step in half a second, the third step in a quarter… And so on. After two seconds, you know whether the process halts, and have thereby generated a random bit.

But the same process can be used to produce freely willed outcome. For if nothing but the will determines the will, we’re locked in an infinite regress: my will to eat a peanut butter sandwich must be made either peanut-butter-willing or non-peanut-butter willing; so for my decision to eat a peanut butter sandwich to be free, the fact that my will is peanut-butter-willing must be free, likewise. Thus, it must be set by my will—which must therefore be peanut-butter-willing-willing, rather than non-peanut-butter-willing-willing, and freely so. And so on. So, we again have an infinite regress at hand—but all of the infinitely many rungs of the ladder can be set by a process equivalent to the one I described giving rise to a random bit.

So you might say, well, actually, there’s no randomness in the universe, there’s just pseudo-randomness. But then, the same infinity crops up at two (superficially) distinct places: first, either the chain of causality is infinite, or it isn’t. If it isn’t, it must have started somewhere—but then, that starting place can’t be causally determined (perhaps it’s some random initial condition—which leads us back to where we were). But more importantly, in any given instance of causation, we’re faced with the same regress: if matters of fact A made it so that matters of fact B obtain, what made it so that matters of fact A are matters-of-fact-B-causing?

So in any case, we bump up against an infinite gap. Which really is no wonder: the question of how things happen is outside of the domain of scientific reasoning; it only describes their regularities. The way things connect is an input into the process, and trying to turn that process on its own input leads to self-referential circularity: the origin of the regresses we’ve seen. Claiming that because these methods are insufficient for this sort of analysis, there must be no ‘there’ there, is essentially to claim that the Earth must be flat, because all our maps are: limitations on the models we use do not imply equivalent limitations on the things modelled.

The difference between the free-will proponent and the free-will opponent then is just what notions they’re willing to accept as ‘basic’: causality, chance, or free will. Neither is in any way in a better position here.

Sure, but that’s irrelevant to the point I was making.
The point is, when confronted with the prospect of a decision being a random coin flip, proponents of “free will” tend to immediately reject it as a free action, which is quite telling for what they implicitly have in mind for a free action.
(it’s also quite telling that they rarely elucidate why it doesn’t count, it’s usually just words to the effect of “That could hardly be free will, now could it?”. Because an explicit description of why it doesn’t count would mean acknowledging that by “choice” we mean a determination, and so bring down the whole house of cards.)

For clarity: I don’t claim that quantum indeterminancy is necessarily random coin flips, and FTR I also make no claim about whether the universe is Deterministic (I suspect it *isn’t* but it’s just a suspicion, I don’t think the data is clear enough yet).

We could do a similar “push back” with Vitalism and claim that that hasn’t been ruled out either.
At a certain point, we have to ask ourselves why we brought up the concept in the first place and what explanatory power it has.

And I would argue that “free will” has pretty much the worst record for explanatory power of any concept ever, because it actually does the exact opposite. It takes many things that aren’t particularly problematic for science, and purports to show they are really mysterious. And leads to many people jumping to odd conclusions like Fatalistic ideas, or that free actions must be causally disconnected.

No progress will be possible until there is an acknowledgement that “free will” is, at best, a poorly-defined concept.
Or rather: progress on the human mind *is* possible, and is happening, it’s just largely happening in spite of the free will tangent that so many people unfortunately waste their time with.

A random choice isn’t free will because it lacks the ‘will’ part. But indeterminism doesn’t mean ‘random choice’—it means that the universe, or the laws of physics, or causality, or what have you, doesn’t uniquely specify the next state, but leaves open a range of options. Random choice is one way of picking one of these options, but there’s no reason this pick couldn’t equally well be done via the exercise of some agent’s free will.

I don’t see how that’s analogous. Vitalism was an explanatory hypothesis that failed in the ordinary scientific manner—there simply didn’t turn out to be any élan vital, just as there didn’t turn out to be any phlogiston, caloric, or aether. The phenomena of life, fire, etc., were found to have other explanations—that is, we discarded one proposed explanation of the data for the sake of another that turned out to be a better fit.

But free will is itself a phenomenon in need of explanation—that we experience ourselves as acting freely is data, for which we try to find a hypothesis. Now, it could very well be that we’re mistaken in our experience—that the data doesn’t say what we think it does. So it’s not that free will is something that’s postulated to explain something, it’s rather that we’re trying to explain how come our experience of free will—it’s the explanandum, not the explanans. So complaining that it has little explanatory power is coming at it from the wrong end entirely.

I agree, but it shares that with any other hypothetical picture of how stuff happens. Random chance, causality, laws of nature (understood in the prescriptive sense, as being responsible for how things happen, rather than in the descriptive sense as giving merely a compressed account of what happens)—they’re all stopgap terms for the mysterious way in which B follows A. The believer in free will is in no worse shape than the believer in chance, or cause: they’re all making a leap beyond what we can assert about the world on an empirical basis. They’re better off in one respect, though: the straightforward explanation to our experience of acting freely they can give is that we actually do act freely—the data as we get it is just how things are. Which is really the default assumption: claiming data is illusory needs a strong justification.

I think this is an important point, actually. When people ask, but how does free will possibly work?, there’s an implicit assumption that there must be some story in terms of step-by-step processes that account for any ‘free’ action. Then, of course, one may pivot to say, but see, this wasn’t free will at all, but just the result of all these steps! Thus, it’s implied, the impossibility of giving an account of free will in terms of something like an algorithmic process must mean that there can’t be any such thing in the world.

But of course, not everything can be accounted for in such a step-by-step fashion. Randomness, for one thing, can’t, yet most people have little trouble accepting it as real, or at the very least, possible. Moreover, the idea that the possible phenomena of the world are delineated by our ability to give a neat conceptual accounting of them is itself rather fraught: it’s the mapmaker’s insistence that the Earth must be flat, because so are all their maps. So we’re not told something about the world with this sort of reasoning, but we are told something about our reasoning capabilities, and our assumptions about their power.

I’m not so sure that’s true (e.g. Einstein’s famous objection that “God does not play dice with the universe”).

This is only a paradox because it assumes time is continuous, while also assuming the state of the lamp is discrete. If time were discrete the infinite series becomes a finite series. If the state of the lamp were continuous, the mathematical answer ‘S converges at 0.5’ is applicable. It would mean perhaps the switch is half way between being on and off, or the lighting element is still warming up.

~Max

The state of any such lamp in the real world is “broken”.
Our universe appears to be finite and bounded in every way. Which again suggests to me that the reason why we cannot resolve “free will” or “no free will” is that the distinction is only meaningful at infinity.

I think, once, I got Mijin to recognize that libertarian free will is not supported by scientific evidence and has no explanatory power.

~Max

It doesn’t assume time is continuous, and ‘converges to 0,5’ isn’t the mathematical answer. Each point in time at which a switch happens is after a rational time interval (\frac{1}{2^n} is rational for all n), and the rational numbers aren’t a continuum (there’s always an irrational number between any two rational numbers). That’s nitpicking of course—you presumably meant that the difference between two successive switches shrinks without lower bound. That’s true, but it’s true for time in all of our best physical theories (in fact, time is a continuum in all of our best physical theories)—the fundamental nature of the Planck time being only conjectural at this point. More to the point, the series that determines the state of the lamp after two seconds is 1 - 1 + 1 - 1 + … The limit of this isn’t 0,5—it’s divergent, so it simply has no well-defined limit.

More importantly, the point I was making is that everyone who claims there is random choice either must leave that random choice a black box, or accept the possibility of processes such as that of Thomson’s lamp. In the first case, they can’t complain about free will, because one can just similarly leave it a black box; in the latter case, they can’t complain about free will, because this sort of process is just as sufficient for free will as it is for random choice.

The same is true for anybody who believes in causality. Either, they accept that the reason for anything happening now is an infinite chain of determinations, or they accept that there’s a black-box beginning—a buck-stops-here uncaused cause and unmoved mover.

The simple truth is that science doesn’t tell us what it is that makes things happen. It tells us—as in, gives a descriptive account of—how things happen. You can think of it as a compression algorithm: any not completely random data will have a description in terms of a shorter string (initial conditions) and an algorithm to reproduce it (the laws of physics). But how that data was created—sampling each bit from a certain probability distribution, each successive bit being determined (‘caused’) by its predecessors, each bit chosen freely—is entirely inaccessible.

The simplest hypothesis in accordance with all data (the universe’s flatness, e.g.) is that it is (spatially) infinite. And most of our current best theories depend on properties of the continuum (the real numbers), such that there is an infinity of moments between any given two points in time, and an infinity of points in each spatial interval. Those theories may yet be overturned, of course, but they’re the best fit for the data we have at the moment.

I don’t think @Mijin would disagree with that, and neither do I. The same, of course, is true for chance and causality. The point is just that free will (like chance and causality) simply isn’t a scientific nor an explanatory hypothesis, so criticizing it on that account is rather like criticizing a submarine for failing to be able to fly.

Although I suppose that’s only true if the state change is instantaneous, which might be what you meant. If it’s not, then at some point, we’d reach a situation where state changes could no longer be completed before the next switch happens. ‘0,5’ might then be a sensible answer if the ramp-up and ramp-down are symmetrical, although they probably wouldn’t be. But really, this is unrelated to the point I was making, which was really just to show that ‘determinate, but non-determined’ isn’t as impossible as one might think, and if it is believed to be, it’s not just free will that goes out of the window.

I think possibly you’ve confused me with someone else?
Because from before I joined the Straight Dope that has been my consistent position, and was the position I was just outlining.

And, to be clear, I don’t even require the “Libertarian” prefix, I think the whole concept of “free will” is ill-defined and we’d be better off without it.

I’ll reply to Half_Man_Half_Wit a little later, I’m technically at work now. :slight_smile: