Lack of Freewill doesn't mean lack of choice

So how are you defining ‘will’? And please don’t say “…could have chosen differently” as that isn’t a definition.

If you simply mean “desire to do things” then I absolutely agree that random chance is not will. But this kind of will presents no particular philosophical difficulty and is trivially causally connected and outside of my control. As I say, I didn’t choose to be hetero or to like chess, these are just part of the situation I find myself in as a human.

I agree with you there: Vitalism at least claimed to explain something, and was at least defined well enough that it was basically falsifiable.

But I don’t experience my decisions being free; that’s a philosophical claim, and would need to begin with explaining what exactly we mean by free.
I experience myself making decisions which is a phenomenon we understand a great deal better than when free will was first debated, in terms of neuroscience, computational models of thought etc etc.

Even if that were true, that would be a whatabout argument. You’re conceding free will is poorly-defined but claiming that so is everything else.
I would dispute that, I think plenty of topics in science and philosophy are better grounded. Heck, Vitalism is, as we just discussed.

Here’s an article on whether or not free will is an illusion that I enjoyed reading. I saw it in a Firefox ‘new tab’ article link feed, so I suspect I got it precisely because I visited this thread early on. I hope I’m not creating some sort of algorithmic feedback loop that breaks the internet by posting it here.

Though I must say, after seeing the level of discourse since the last time I visited this thread, I almost feel like I’m posting a ‘Philosophy 101’ level article among doctoral dissertations, but still I feel compelled to post it, almost like I have…no…choice…

I’m not a great fan of excess definitions—it leads to the Socratic fallacy too easily. We’ve often got a perfectly good grasp of a concept, even without giving a proper definition—indeed, the fact that we can see whether a definition is apt or not entails that we have an understanding of the concept apart from the definition. A lot of people hold that since Gettier, nobody’s really come up with a good definition of ‘knowledge’, but that doesn’t mean we don’t know what knowledge is—indeed, the fact that we can see that Gettier cases don’t constitute knowledge despite fitting its ostensible definition as ‘justified true belief’ means we understand what knowledge is apart from that definition.

Moreover, many things have a claim to being indefinable as such, for instance, subjective appearances—I can’t define my experience of greenness, for instance; I can at best define the wavelength of light that produces this particular experience. So, to the extent that will is something that is experienced—which to me is its most salient aspect—the definitionist game doesn’t really apply.

For present purposes, and with the above caveats, however, I think I’d be alright with something like ‘intention to bring about a certain state of affairs’.

This is dodging my point, though: free will might not explain anything, but it’s not intended to, and to apply the concept of falsifiability is just to commit a category error.

Then your experience must differ from mine—I do experience my actions as free. For instance, if I now decide whether to type A or B—B—my experience is such as to include the possibility of choosing A instead. I experience the world as open to my choice, and my will as filling that opening. I experience my will, my self, as the source of the action—I don’t experience, say, the boundary conditions of the universe as its source. That might be different: I could have an experience, for instance, of consulting an inner randomness generator and producing an action on this basis, or I could look up a value in some database and act accordingly.

One could easily imagine a robot, upon being asked why it typed B instead of A, to answer, well, I looked up the color of the central cell of the cellular automaton Rule 30 generation corresponding to the current timestamp, which was black, so I typed ‘B’. Such a being would not experience its choices as free, and they wouldn’t be; but that experience is not my experience.

Not everything, just every other story about how things happen—that is, mainly, causality and chance. Because the typical argument is that the latter two are well defined, while free will isn’t; but that’s just false. Each is ultimately just a black box, because our scientific investigations tell us nothing whatever about how one thing makes another happen. They tell us the regularities of this, but nothing more.

So if one is committed to the view that the arguments against free will are cogent, then one should equally well hold that there is no such thing as causality, or chance, and that how things happen is just a great mystery. If you’re holding that sort of stance, then I’m not arguing. All I’m saying is that it’s equally reasonable—or unreasonable, as the case may be—to believe in free will as it is to believe in causality, or randomness. You can validly say that, in each of these cases, we just don’t know. But you can’t claim to be able to establish for certain there’s no such thing as free will, in particular.

No, it’s the only real problem there is—every other problem is spurious. The general charge is that the notion is incoherent (arguments about determinism, causality, chance, and so on, and in particular the consequence argument, really are beside the point). The idea is that free will would be both ‘determinate and non-determined’, as I think you put it—i.e. there’s nothing that determines it, but it’s still supposed to have some determinate content. But this can only be coherent if it must be something beside the will that determines it—the will self-determining would not preclude its freedom. If it’s causa sui, then my will and nothing beside my will determines my actions. So such self-determination must be impossible. But this it only is if the regress entailed by self-determination is impossible. If it’s not, then the will determines itself, and is thereby free.

Our experience of our actions as free is the reason we posit the existence of free will. Any alternative then has the added explanatory burden of producing a reason for this illusory experience.

I have, at several points in this thread. For example:

More explicitly, there’s actually the same infinitary issue at work at every instance where some A causes B to occur:

(This thread-jumping is very awkward, by the way; so I’d propose that we keep matters regarding free will in this thread, leaving the other to Thomson’s lamp proper.)

Nor I.
However in this case note that the debate is over whether FW even exists. I don’t mean the debate between you and I, I mean the whole debate in general.
Given that reality, it’s especially important to get a clear definition down. Otherwise we don’t even know what we’re arguing about. We’re in “Not even wrong” territory.

OK, cool. And that’s pretty much the definition I suggested (though of course I personally avoid labelling this kind of intentionality as “free will” because of all the baggage with the concept, but for the present discussion, it’s OK).
So, yeah, intention clearly exists, and is perfectly compatible with a deterministic universe. Agreed?

I have that same experience, however being “free” in this context is usually taken to be the philosophical claim that that decision is not causally determined. But that makes no sense.
In essence, what I am saying is that reasoned choices happen for reasons. So, while I am “free” to choose X or Y, the actual reason that I did choose X is…well, whatever those reasons were. But they are always going to be some function of my preferences, memories and the state of the universe.

None of this should be controversial but unfortunately there is some psychological thing where people feel the voice in their mind should be separate to the universe (and also, as I say, there’s a religious baggage). So on it goes.

As I see it, the existence of free will requires either the supernatural (something beyond or outside of the natural, material world), or some aspect of the natural world that is outside the understanding of current science (in much the same way that certain aspects of quantum mechanics used to be).

Plenty of the natural world is outside of our understanding, including in the human mind. And that’s just the known unknowns.

There’s nothing I enjoy more than talking about these unknowns and comparing candidate models, and discussing how we can test those ideas.

And that’s actually why free will irks me. It’s a “nothing burger”. It exists only as a concept (not as an empirical claim, as Half_Man_Half_Wit has been keen to stress), yet usually proponents of the idea try to dodge defining it.
And by “proponents” I mean here anyone that thinks the concept is meaningful – so both the “There is no free will” and “We do have free will” crowds. The whole concept is garbage IMHO.

I don’t know. What’s a ‘deterministic universe’? I’m only slightly facetious, here—but think about something like Malebranchian occasionalism: every moment of the universe is shaped by the will of god. Then, the universe is deterministic, and clearly compatible with intention, since every moment is the way it is because of god’s intention.

On the other hand, something like a block universe doesn’t contain any intention—no intention that has any part in shaping the course of the universe, at least.

Again: being ‘causally determined’ doesn’t make any more sense. You’re trying to replace a mystery with an enigma.

And my point was that I experience myself, my will, as the source of an action—which I might not: see my example with the robot. And one way that experience might come about is simply by it being veridical; everything else—in particular, something appealing to dodgy notions like ‘causality’ or ‘chance’—at the very least would have to face the burden of explaining why I experience my freedom in such an illusory way.

Possibly. But then again, some people have some weird psychological thing where they can’t accept that their opinion isn’t the only sensible one, and have to attribute other’s to psychological compulsion or religious indoctrination. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

I would disagree.
If the thoughts in my mind are a critical part of the “lattice” that decides my life course then intention is still important. Indeed it doesn’t make any difference to the importance of those thoughts. My future being fixed should make me no more uncomfortable than my past being fixed.

How so? You’re implying here that Determinism itself is mysterious and I do not think you have shown this.

Sure, and that’s why I am here having debates and trying to be absolutely clear on the definition of concepts like “free will”.
You know, for me, a positive outcome of a discussion like this would be finding that free will can be concretely defined and that it is an interesting question of whether our universe permits it or not.
That would be great. I don’t think it’s likely though.

Now, would you be willing to change your mind? Despite years of writing on this topic, including, I believe in academic papers, would you be hypothetically willing to throw it all away and start over?

Let’s say I am making a decision between soup and sandwich for lunch and land on soup. I am displaying “intention”, right?
Let’s say further, that I filmed myself making this choice and then played it back for you.
Would you say that the person in the film is displaying “intention”? And I want to be really specific here: when I say “the person in the film”, I mean the abstraction of me in the film not “me in the past”.
Why or why not?
Would it make any difference if, instead of regular film, it’s special film that records the entire scene, inside and out, down to the subatomic particle level so that you could zoom in on the neurons in “my” brain and see the whole decision-making process play out in detail?

Apologies for the questioning post - I’m still (honestly) trying to understand how you are using words like “choice” and “intention”. As far as I can tell, they’re either exactly as self-contradictory as you have noted “free will” to be or they’re so broad that they bear little relationship to common parlance.

Such intention doesn’t originate anything, though—it’s an epiphenomenon. So it doesn’t have any part in shaping the course of the universe in that sense.

I’ve given the argument several times throughout this thread, quoted it twice in the post above the one you’re replying to. You presumably don’t find it convincing, but if you’ve given a reason as to why so far, I’ve missed it.

Well, I’d certainly hope so—although of course I’m subject to as much bias and motivated reasoning as the next guy, so I can’t ever be quite sure. But for one thing, if you think I believe in free will, you have me pegged wrong—I merely don’t think the arguments marshalled against it work the way they’re intended to, but that doesn’t settle the matter, of course. Also, I can at least point to the fact that my opinion on this has changed, in the past—some years ago, I was making exactly the same sort of arguments you’re making now here on this board, e.g. in this thread:

And a bit later on:

It’s only after thinking about these issues some more that I eventually realized this sort of objection wasn’t as strong as I had believed, and moreover, can be made equally well for the supposed alternatives to free will.

Of course, maybe my past self was more enlightened than I am now, and my current doubts just stem from some deep-seated, unconscious desire to believe in free will—but in all honesty, as far as I can tell, I don’t particularly prefer either alternative (i.e. there being or not being free will). It’s simply irrelevant for most things that matter—as I said upthread, my path on a rollercoaster is perfectly predetermined, but that doesn’t impinge on my enjoyment, or make riding it pointless in any way.

Yes.

Yes, it’s a film of someone displaying intention.
I don’t know what you mean by “abstraction of you in the film”. It’s like asking me “Does the word epolo in this sentence have intention?”. Intention is a quality of physical thinking things like brains or possibly computers.

No.
Put it this way: if I watch a beautiful, sensual bachata dance, is that now invalidated by someone being able to describe that dance entirely in terms of electrical impulses and chemical reactions?
No; they are different levels of description of the same thing.

As it is with decisions. In principle*, the reasons that I do things could be broken down in terms of my exact biology and the physical interaction of that biology with the wider universe. *And* I chose to watch the football game instead of study because I was tired and finding it hard to concentrate anyway since my date last night.

* And this is very much in principle. Because we’re talking about not just perfectly modelling a brain but also all inputs and outputs to the physical world. Essentially you’d have to run a simulation of the world to be able to predict all my actions, and somehow get around the issues of quantum indeterminancy and chaotic systems along the way.

Absolutely not.

My decision-making process is very far from epiphenomenal; take out that process and my body simply falls to the ground and starves. It’s absolutely critical. It just happens to be causally connected to the rest of the universe.

I mean what you’re saying here is akin to saying the piston in a car cylinder is epiphenomenal because there is something that causes it to go up and down.

I’ll just reply on this one point for now, because this seems a critical part of the disagreement.

You’re saying contradictory things here: one, that your decision process is ‘causally connected’ to the rest of the universe, and two, that it is in any way meaningful to think of ‘taking it out’. But you can’t do that: given the state of the universe, say, ten million years ago, your decision-making process is already set in stone (taking a hard determinist stance for now), such that a Laplacian demon could perfectly reconstruct it from just the knowledge of all facts at that point—it’s logically entailed. In that sense, it’s just along for the ride without itself contributing anything (indeed, the idea that it contributes anything is just the idea of free will you object to).

Take a ball, tossed in the air: what determines its final landing spot is the details of the way it was thrown—all the steps in between are set in stone, and it’s just not meaningful to ‘take them out’. But they don’t contribute anything to the final landing point. F

We are definitely talking past each other here and to the extent that I’m not being clear, I apologize.
Once the recording is made, there are now two “things” (I’m sure there’s a better philosophical term than that): the epolo who ate soup for lunch and who is embedded in the context of the “real universe” and the epolo copy who can be observed over and over again making the decision to eat soup and who is embedded in the “film universe” (which is itself embedded in the “real universe”). In this hypothetical, the “film universe” is as detailed as we need it to be; we can observe every particle. And we have no issue of needing to model the whole of the “real universe” or quantum indeterminacy or chaotic systems. The “film universe” is just a recording of something that actually happened, we’re not trying to extrapolate forward or backward from it.

Given that, is epolo copy displaying intention?

Circling back to this sentence…
What is it that defines “physical thinking things like brains”? What makes them different from other configurations of matter or energy?

No, it’s not a contradiction, it’s exactly the point.
Imagine I have a clockwork machine. Can I meaningfully say that taking one cog out would mean the machine no longer functions? Yes, yes I can. No contradiction there, I am not simultaneously claiming the cog is removed and yet the machine functions, I am presenting two scenarios.

In fact, if anyone is claiming a machine with pieces removed will still function, it is you, when you made the claim that my decision-making thoughts are epiphenomenal.

I’m going to stop you there.
It’s not a universe, it doesn’t have inter-reacting entities. It’s just a set of static images.
You may as well be asking Does my shadow feel hunger (because it’s an image of thing that feels hunger)?
The answer is no.

Two things here.

Firstly the reminder that reductive accounts are not often (and indeed not usually) the best description of objects and entities in our reality.

Why do we have this discrete word “toaster”…is it not just a configuration of matter?
Well, yes it is a configuration of matter, but it’s a complex system of different kinds of matter arranged in such a way that it can perform operations principally holding, toasting, timing and ejecting various breaded foods.
Note that no single atom or molecule is capable of performing a toasting function, that is something only possible in aggregate. Just as a pachinko ball doesn’t think, but hypothetically a structure composed of millions of pachinko balls might.

So secondly, in answer to your question, a brain is a biological machine capable of processing information and performing abstract reasoning.
If you’re wondering why the word “biological” was slipped in there, it’s purely because conventionally we reserve the word “brain” for a biological organ. But I’m quite prepared to say that computers are also capable of information-processing and abstract reasoning.

So, now we’re getting somewhere.
How does a deterministic universe differ from a set of static images? If every state of the universe follows directly and mechanistically from the state before, it can be visualized as a four-dimensional solid with each “slice” corresponding to an instant in time. I believe this is the “block universe” construction referenced upthread. And this is exactly what we have on our hypothetical film strip. If the representation of a person in the film cannot have intention, how can the person in the block universe?

Ok. So do all machines with the capability for processing information and performing abstract reasoning also display “intention”? If those things are equivalent then your definition is circular - brains are things that have intention, intention is something that brains have. If not, can you provide a counterexample of something that has one without the other?

That’s not a good analogy. Your intention isn’t a cog in the machinery of the universe; it’s a result of that machinery’s operation. Hence, you can’t change the intention without changing the machinery. Concretely, everything is fixed by the initial conditions of the universe and the laws of nature. So, any change you could make is to the initial conditions of the universe (or the laws of nature, but let’s leave god out of this). You can’t keep those conditions the same, and change your intention—it’s purely a result of these conditions. It’s at the output-level of the machinery, not a part of its operations.

The drama you’re acting out was written 13.8 billion years ago, and everything since has just been the unwinding of the mechanism then set in motion. So a better analogy would be something like an automaton clock, with little figures enacting some complicated dance. Their movements are solely the result of the gears whirring away behind the scenes, and so would their intentions be, should they have any (which should not be philosophically troubling to you). What you’re saying is that the gears could whirr away as they do, yet the dance (including the intentions) be different—but of course, that’s not possible. The dance-moves as well as the intentions come along for the ride, they’re a result, they don’t originate anything, as the origin of anything is already given by the way the cogs interlock (i.e. the initial conditions of the universe). There’s no intention over and above this you could ‘take out’ and have the dancer slump to the ground; the only way to do this would be to re-wind the whole thing and set it on a new, and different, course—and then, still, the same thing would be true, namely, that the boundary conditions of the universe are the sum total of the determining factors of the dancer’s motion, and any intention to, say, whirl in a pirouette be just as surely a result of them as the actual action is.

Actually that’s exactly the point in contention.
If cog A turns cog B turns cog C then it’s both true that cog C’s movement was predictable from cog A’s movement and that cog B played an integral role and is very much not “epiphenomenal”.
And clearly, the neurocircuitry of my brain is much like this situation, as replace it with empty space and my body dies immediately: just like taking out cog B. Not epiphenomenal.

In terms of the rest of your post, I don’t want to get too bogged down in the prediction thing, because I don’t actually hold a strong opinion on whether the universe is Deterministic (as I said, I lean more towards that it is not Deterministic though).
My strong opinion is that “free will” is not coherently defined and can’t exist in any universe, whether Deterministic or not.