Lack of Gun Laws on Federal land?

[Grestarian]

This is a non-hijack of Trinopus’ Laws Against Nudity thread in IMHO. GQ is not my normal stomping grounds, but since I’m looking for factual answers rather than personal opinions on a potentially controversial subject, I thought I’d post it here instead. Mods: You are strongly encouraged to lock this thing down if it derails into a should/shouldn’t debate.

My coworker says that, whenever he and his friends go camping, they make a point of choosing a campground on National Park land, rather than a municipal campground or state or county land. He likes to boast that, as soon as they get out of the car at the camp site, everyone (all the men and even some of the wives) pulls out a pistol, loads up, and tucks the weapon into a waistband or hip holster. Invariably one of the wives will ask why and invariably he or one of the other men will say something like, “Because we’re on Federal land and, here, state and local regulations can’t impede the Second Amendment.”

Is this true? Can a legal research -savvy doper cite a ruling or definitive chapter/verse that supports or debunks this claim? We’ve determined in Trinopus’ thread that nudity is actually regulated on Federal land. How about firearms?

Thanks in advance!

–G?

[Schnitte]

Just because a plot of land is owned by the federal government, it doesn’t necessarily cease to be subject to state law. It is possible for states to cede jurisdiction over an area - such as a national park - to the federal government, in which case federal law - including all limitations on the carrying and use of gun stipulated there - applies. This cession requires a separate transaction between the state and the federal governments, however; it doesn’t automatically follow from ownership in the land in the private law sense.

[barbitu8]

Federal property in a state, county, city, or other local jurisdiction is subject to concurrent jurisdiction by both the federal government and the local jurisdiction. Although you may not be violating a federal law, you may be violating a local law.

[Czarcasm]

A rider attached to the Credit Card Accountability Responsibility and Disclosure Act of 2009, passed by Congress and signed into law by President Barack Obama that went into effect on February 22, 2010 allows the possession of firearms in national parks…but possession only is covered by this law. Usage of firearms still fall under state laws and whatever ordinances govern the parks themselves. From the Yellowstonk Park website:

Can I shoot my gun?

In a word, no. The overarching permission that allows guns in Yellowstone doesn’t note the range of additional rules surrounding the presence of firearms in the park. The most important caveat is that visitors aren’t allowed to shoot them. Hunting is strictly forbidden in Yellowstone, as is target practice. And visitors should not use guns as self-defense against large wildlife, but rather carry bear spray and take other safety precautions. Firearms are also prohibited in facilities like visitor centers and government offices. These locations are labeled at all public entrances.

If I can’t shoot my gun, why are they allowed?

According to park ranger and guides, the main reason for allowing guns in Yellowstone is to facilitate town-to-town travel for local citizens. Many areas outside of the park are prime hunting locations, and hunters often use roads through Yellowstone because it’s the most direct route, or in the case of Cooke City in the winter, the only route. It’s difficult for rangers to restrict people from carrying guns in their vehicles.

While guns are allowed in the park, each state has its own individual regulatory practices. Because Yellowstone encompasses parts of Wyoming, Montana and Idaho, it’s important that visitors understand and comply with all applicable state and local firearms laws (in addition to national laws) before entering this park. The 2010 federal law did not affect other weapons like bows, swords and pellet or BB guns, all of which remain prohibited by the National Park Service.

[engineer_comp_geek]

Your friends are flat out wrong. But there’s a good chance they aren’t actually violating any laws.

Back in Feb. of 2010 a law was passed that allows firearms on federal lands. What your friends don’t understand is that they still have to comply with local and state laws. Many states allow open carry, which is why there’s a decent chance that they actually are in compliance with the laws, though for reasons other than what they think.

Take Yellowstone National Park for example. This park spans three states, Wyoming, Montanna, and Idaho. All three states allow open carry. The rules vary slightly in each state, though. Wyoming, for example, has no age restrictions. Montana has an age requirement of 14, and Idaho has an age requirement of 18. A 17-year-old with an open carry weapon would therefore be ok in two of those states but not the third. All three states allow concealed carry with a permit, but the details in each state again vary. Wyoming only requires a permit for non-residents. Montana and Idaho require permits for everyone. These states also have reciprocity agreements with other states, but which state again vary.

See the laws and policies here for details:
http://www.nps.gov/yell/parkmgmt/lawsandpolicies.htm

Clearly, if even the national government (in this case the National Parks Service) says that state laws apply, it makes your friends look kinda silly for saying they don’t.

There’s some fuzziness in the law, too, as firearms are permitted on federal lands but banned in federal facilities, and sometimes it’s not clear exactly where the land stops and the facility starts.

Some other states don’t allow open carry or require a permit, which your friends don’t have. In those states they would be in violation of state law and could find out the hard way that their belief in the protection of the 2nd amendment isn’t going to save them from punishment.

On previous, I see that Czarcasm not only quoted the same law but also used Yellowstone as a reference! It does show up first in google, which is why I referenced it.

[Orwell]

@engineer_comp_geek

Some other states don’t allow open carry or require a permit, which your friends don’t have. In those states they would be in violation of state law and could find out the hard way that their belief in the protection of the 2nd amendment isn’t going to save them from punishment.

How do you know his friends don’t have carry permits? Otherwise, you are correct that the 2010 law now allows people who are otherwise allowed to carry a gun, either open or concealed in accordance with state law, to do so. It allows people who have a carry permit to now carry in federal parks, as they are allowed to do elsewhere in their state.

As can be seen on this national park service website http://www.nps.gov/appa/parkmgmt/questions-and-answers.htm, the typical answer to questions about guns in national parks is “If it is allowed by applicable federal, state, and local firearms laws.” The OP’s friends have it backwards. It isn’t that national parks are beyond local and state laws, it’s that now national parks can’t create their own laws.

[thelurkinghorror]

I shoot semi-regularly on public lands, but it is BLM, which is a far cry from NPS. At the very minimum, you do have to obey congestion rules, and not shoot near property or roads. I realize the OP seems to be about mere carrying, but the laws don’t go out of the window, and the parks are particularly able to enforce law, up to (as seen above), forbidding possession until recently.

But they are maybe right that the NPS and state laws are more understandable than any random private or local campsite, who may post other rules like arbitrary “no firearms” signs.

[Duckster]

@engineer_comp_geek

Take Yellowstone National Park for example. This park spans three states, Wyoming, Montanna, and Idaho. All three states allow open carry. The rules vary slightly in each state, though. Wyoming, for example, has no age restrictions. Montana has an age requirement of 14, and Idaho has an age requirement of 18. A 17-year-old with an open carry weapon would therefore be ok in two of those states but not the third. All three states allow concealed carry with a permit, but the details in each state again vary. Wyoming only requires a permit for non-residents. Montana and Idaho require permits for everyone. These states also have reciprocity agreements with other states, but which state again vary.

Yellowstone National Park is original jurisdiction. The feds have total control. You can possess a firearm in Yellowstone, but woe be you if you discharge that firearm.

I have LEO friends in federal land management agencies. The feds produce a weekly list of incidents. You would be surprised by the number of regular firearms violations that occur, and numbers of incidents where a firearm was present but was not officially listed as a primary violation. In other words, the feds have plenty at their disposal to nail you.

[Grestarian]

Thank you, everyone.

It still seems a bit childish that the very first things for him (and his fellow campers) to do is load up and strap on, but I suspect there’s other privileges I am (or was) quick to flaunt when they’re available to me.

Ignorance fought.

–G!

[Fear_Itself]

@Orwell

How do you know his friends don’t have carry permits?

Because of this:

@Grestarian

Invariably one of the wives will ask why and invariably he or one of the other men will say something like, “Because we’re on Federal land and, here, state and local regulations can’t impede the Second Amendment.”

If they had carry permits, state and local laws would not be an issue.

[bob_2]

@Grestarian

My coworker ~ likes to boast that, as soon as they get out of the car at the camp site, everyone (all the men and even some of the wives) pulls out a pistol, loads up, and tucks the weapon into a waistband or hip holster.

Do any of you guys realise how weird this sounds to a non American? Especially in the context of a Nudity debate.

When we go camping, as soon as we get out of the car, someone gets cracking and makes a brew.

[Stealth_Potato]

@Duckster

Yellowstone National Park is original jurisdiction. The feds have total control. You can possess a firearm in Yellowstone, but woe be you if you discharge that firearm.

Is this true even if, hypothetically, Wyoming were to prohibit open or concealed carry without a permit? I always figured that, while it was no longer a federal violation to possess a firearm on National Park land, you could still be in violation of state law.

[Orwell]

@Stealth_Potato

Is this true even if, hypothetically, Wyoming were to prohibit open or concealed carry without a permit? I always figured that, while it was no longer a federal violation to possess a firearm on National Park land, you could still be in violation of state law.

No. What the 2010 law did was make national parks subject to underlying state laws, so if you are allowed to open or concealed carry according to state laws (with or without pertinent permits), you can now do so in national parks.

[Orwell]

@bob_2

Do any of you guys realise how weird this sounds to a non American? Especially in the context of a Nudity debate.

When we go camping, as soon as we get out of the car, someone gets cracking and makes a brew.

I’ve taken numerous European visitors to the shooting range, and they’ve all enjoyed it tremendously. Pretty envious, from what I can tell.

[Duckster]

@Orwell

No. What the 2010 law did was make national parks subject to underlying state laws, so if you are allowed to open or concealed carry according to state laws (with or without pertinent permits), you can now do so in national parks.

Not correct. Regardless of what a state law says, federal law trumps it. A park superintendent has the power to issue a Park Order, based on 36 CFR authority to do so, which is supported by a delegated federal law, to ban open/concealed carry, if circumstances warrant. The Yellowstone Park Superintendent has not chosen to restrictopen/concealed carry. But he can avail himself of existing authority in other areas of 36 CFR to effect the appropriate behavior that could be interpreted as banning open/concealed carry.